I posted this on page four of this thread.

Mostly because Dems are usually anti-gun.

They might use words and phrases that stem from war and firearms, but probably don't do it while visualizing exactly that. Palin used to use the term "reload" and other suggestive wording in a context that often suggested taking up arms, as did Sharon Angle, and Jesse Kelly.


Because I haven't yet seen a Democratic politician so gleefully brandish firearms in the media, in such a political context as has Palin, and a few other right-leaning extremists.

Looks to me like this guy was in fact just nuts.

:shrug:

I'm genuinely surprised he's leftist in his beliefs, but crazy isn't blue or red.

Must have read too fast, and missed that part.

:shrug:

Although, he might have changed since '07 (I mean, changed affiliation, but remained crazy). Who knows...he ain't talking.

*cough*alan grayson*cough*

probably dump it in a week should it prove true :lol

im surprised he skipped catcher in the rye

Funny thing about all the Obama-haters is..............He's actually turned out to be less liberal than either Clinton or Carter.

The only reason people are crying "socialist" is because he came after such a right-wing adminstration.

Oh, and because he's "different" in other ways too.......:rolleyes:

Also........What does pot have to do with being liberal or conservative? Are you guys saying liberals do pot, while conservatives do......what exactly? Meth?

By what measure do you say he is less liberal than Clinton?

This just in, seems the congresswoman and bystanders were killed and wounded by 'natural causes', very similar to those that killed 100,000 birds in Arkansas and more than 2 million fish back East. Oh well no more conspiracy theory or political contraversy...

The socialist stuff also really picked up steam with the Healthcare reform.

Most people associate pot smokers with hippies and such. It's got a very liberal view of the activity. It's stereotypical left. Conservatives do the more hypocritical I don't do drugs, but I actually do use drugs view.

Journalists urged caution after Ft. Hood, now race to blame Palin after Arizona shootings

bet what ratings they still cling to dwindle after this.

right cause all the government buyouts and installation of czars is a totally normal capitalist free market thing to do :rolleyes:

I've noticed the same thing. You can also add in when a terrorist attack is carried out by someone affiliated with certain beliefs (trying to keep it News Desk friendly), even after it is confirmed the attack was in the name of those beliefs, the media is very quick to emphasize that the attacker is an individual and shouldn't be used as an indictment of the entire group (as they should). In this case the shooter has deliberately been used to indict a political belief system generally and Palin, Angle, Beck, and the Tea Party specifically despite there being zero evidence so far that he was involved in that political belief system or paid any attention to those specifically mentioned.

I find it absolutely pathetic that some in the media (and in politics) who separate the crazed acts of an individual from the group with which they identify have immediately used this crazed individual to indict groups with which there is zero evidence the shooter identified.:td:

That isn't as clear as I would like, but I'd hate to see this thread moved to the War Room as a result of something I said.

I think Slice's assertion is ridiculous, but not for the reasons you list. The Bush admin started the bailout/buyout thing with TARP, though the Obama admin did expand its scope. Also, the Bush admin had czars too, just not as many as the Obama admin has had.

hes just as guilty. i dont defend him in the least

That's fine, but nobody was accusing him of being a socialist.:idk:

I don't want to be thought as a northerner that thinks everyone is the south walks around shooting their gun in the air, but Arizona is open carry. I know this is a tiny place on the map with a very small fraction of human population but I would have thought someone would have had a gun on them.

Beck has but I don't think anyone cared about him back then

PA and Virgina are Open Carry states. Maybe the didn't think it was appropriate to meet the senator or they thought they would have to pass through a security search to talk to her so they didn't bring a weapon? I know I don't carry to a place where I believe I'm going to be searched.

They were at a grocery store. I doubt they were searching people seeing that she now has a hole in her head.

That wasn't my point. Reread my post. I was saying most LAW ABIDING gun carriers would purposely leave their gun in the car or at home ASSUMING there are usually security checks at these sorts of events.

Also she is a democrat, so not too many of her supporters are the gun toting type.

I wasnt speaking down on you. May what you said is true but I wouldn't disarm myself. They have the right to carry so I was just expecting someone to be locked and loaded.

Most people, even well trained gun owners, don't respond well to something like this. I have seen a study about what would happen if they had well trained gun owners with their guns in a classroom environment and all of them failed to stop the attacker. Most didn't even have time to draw. It usually happens faster than your brain can respond and a lot of people resort to flight as a first instinct.

Truth

Just saw that those WBC fucks are going to be picketing the funerals of the ones that died...

People that actually deserve to be shot never do.

naturally

Beck seems to think anyone to the left of Joe McCarthy is a socialist.

True

Motherfucker.

why can't a nutbag go nutz on them....

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

I don't carry so I'm just giving my personal impressions. It seems to me most of those who do carry aren't going to be going to an open house for a Democratic candidate, even though Giffords was not the typical anti-gun Democrat. Those who do and were going would probably leave their weapon at home when going to talk to a politician. Those who are in the "I carry all the time, no matter what" crowd would probably avoid events where they might get hassled for carrying. All that said, that is why I suspect there probably weren't people carrying in attendance.

On the "after the guy started shooting" thing, even if he made it all the way through his first magazine (I've heard 30 rounds) the shooting may have been over seconds after it started. If the actual shooting lasted longer than 5-10 seconds I'd be surprised.

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

What percentage of the population of Arizona do you think is carrying at any given time? Do you think that percentage drops at a Democratic political event?

I was as well.

People don't react like they are badass internet warriors. They flee from the scene. Everyone talks a big game about being able to draw and kill someone, but that's not reality. The average gun owner will not draw and kill when something this happens, they duck and cover.

He didn't disappear, an unarmed citizen tackled his ass when he went to reload. As I clearly stated before, gun owners have been shown to not have the killer instinct. The choose flight over fight. Most of the time it takes someone trained to choose fight and draw to kill. Like an off duty or someone military trained. The average john smith with his carry license doesn't react well to pressure that a shooting brings on.

The woman that tackled him was already wounded.

She's quite the fucking hero, actually.

Because that would make too much freaking sense.

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing. :idk:


Shooting suspect's nihilism rose with isolation
By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Justin Pritchard, Associated Press Sun Jan 9, 7:09 pm ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

On Sunday, Loughner was charged with the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were wounded. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords' chances for survival.

Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007 — the same kind of event where officials say Loughner opened fire Saturday.

Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature.

His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send nonsensical text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said. It was the first time he'd felt that way.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if he met certain conditions, including getting a mental health professional to agree that his presence on campus did not present a danger, the school said.

To his friends, it had been a gradual alienation.

The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.

Over time, Loughner became increasingly engrossed in his own thoughts — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."

Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.

"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.

The friend added that Loughner believed government was trying to get people to accept their meaningless lives so that they would stop dreaming — literally.

He told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.

Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their dreams. He kept a detailed journal about what he saw while asleep, and tried to get the friends involved.

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."

Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." He said described America's laws as "treasonous," said the "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency," and that "if the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the revolutionary's from the revolution are in control of the land and laws."

Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement indicating Loughner was not accepted.

"He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected," it said.

Loughner tried to enlist because it was one way of getting out of the "T-Loc" life — kicking around as a Tucson local — one of the friends said.

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

Mmm communist manifesto, mein kampf, 9-11 was an inside job, and faked space missions? What were you saying about tea parties again? :lmao:

From what I have heard and read, a woman didn't tackle him. Two dudes tackled him. A old woman grabbed the magazine from him after two dudes tackled him. She wasn't shot, but she prevented him from reloading while struggling with the two guys.

You tend to do that when ur a puppet of the ruling elite. He isn't running anything...

So politicians who lean to the right are all tools of the ruling elite?

Perhaps, certaintly if they had the same gold spoon up your ass upbringing with similar mentors

So because someone read the manifesto and mein kampf says whether they are left or right? Tons of people read things like that because they want to see how fucked up the opposing side is.

OK 9/11 maybe, but how is believing the moon landing was fake liberal or conservative?

Read sure. Listed as favorite book? That's a bit different.

"Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto" aren't exactly what I would call congruent works. In many ways they're diametrically opposed.

If you go by what's in people's libraries then I'm an Islamic (Koran) Christian Fundamentalist (New Plain English Bible) Witch (various books on Celtic and old English mythology) Serial Killer (Catcher in the Rye). That's leaving out my books on various Asian cultures, several other religious texts, a rather extensive SF and Fantasy novel collection, the collected works of William Shakespeare....

I haven't seen anyone really push him being a real lefty (I may have missed it though). If anything most of the political talk has been refuting the initial assumption, with absolutely nothing to back it up, that he is a hardcore Tea Partier who did this because Sharon Angle, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh told him to. Whatever political party it ends up he supports, if he even supports one, I haven't seen anything that indicates political affiliation had anything to do with why he did this.

I haven't seen too many on the right saying he did this because of people on the left, but I have seen the regular cast of characters on the left saying he did this because of people on the right. Either way I think both groups are wrong. Everything I'm seeing indicates he did this because he was mentally unstable. That may change as the investigation continues, but even the County Sheriff who got so much play initially for blaming the fired up political rhetoric has admitted they haven't seen anything so far that backs that assertion up.

Rational political groups don't own the acts of irrational people so, whether he 'belongs' to either Dems or Reps, his evil is his own.

As to how people are reacting to this, read the comments that are attached to this Youtube vid. I'm thinking that the gene pool could use a hefty dose of bleach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_wmsaXJKp0

Anyone who doesn't have a regular social circle is more inclined to do something like this. That and the fact that if you aren't actively involved in your community, you tend to see government as some kind of manipulative system rather than a group of human beings.

You and I agree on this but it sure seems most of the media does not. There is zero evidence so far that he was in any way motivated by the right and similar rhetoric has come from the left. The majority of the media has decided, despite the above, that it is "fair" to discuss what hypothetical responsibility the political right should bear. It appears to me they have decided to play lip service to the facts as we currently know them while doing what they can to blame the right.

Maybe it is happening and I haven't come across it, but the political side of this discussion hasn't suggested that this guy did this because he is a lefty and was motivated by the left. What I have seen is "one side" saying he was a righty motivated by the right while the "other side" says he wasn't a righty, he may even have been a lefty (without saying that motivated him to do this), but his politics had nothing to do with this. I see that as a large distinction between the two sides of the discussion.

Are you telling me people post moronic things on the internet? My worldview has been shattered.

The current political climate tends to fuel this, or be fuelled by it (chicken and the egg scenario). The guy attacked a Democrat, so the backlash is toward Republicans. The way that I see it, it's similar to people who blame religion for people who shoot abortion doctors, or blow up troops with IEDs. A marginal personality is a marginal personality. If politics didn't 'make' him kill someone then it would have been demonic rock music, TV, or violent video games.

Quite simply put, someone with his head screwed on straight doesn't do shit like that.

Pretty much :lol:

The thing is that sort of comment doesn't exactly douse the political fires, now does it? Making that sort of comment, even 'just' on the internet, isn't only stupid, it's FUCKING stupid.

I'd like to think that you are right but I just don't. Most of the media seems to do an OK job when reporting facts, but with this story there really aren't many facts to report. The story is too big for the media to deal with other stories until more facts come in though. Since they still have to fill airtime/pages but they have no "news" to fill it with they resort to editorializing which is where they really fall down.

This is nothing but pure speculation on my part, but if this had been a Republican I believe the backlash would still be against Republicans. My theory is we would be hearing about how nobody deserves this and it isn't an excuse, but violence begets violence and the violent imagery from the right created an atmosphere where this kind of attack could happen. It would be nice if my theory was way off base and reporters avoided trying to place blame with absolutely nothing to back it up, but I really don't think that would happen and it certainly hasn't happened in this case.

I don't think those comments really inflame the political fires either though. To paraphrase what you said above, someone with their head screwed on straight isn't going to be affected by that kind of garbage to begin with. People with any sense recognize that kind of crap as exactly that, crap.

Paraphrase a few of the comments you recall.

The comment section has been disabled for the video.

"The Joos are the devil!"

That's definitely one of the themes; assholes saying that she's a Jew and deserves to die. Then there were the comments about how some hoped that the "socialist bitch would just die." After reading them, I was rather sick. When I said "chlorine for the gene pool", I really meant hydrochloric acid.

If it was just one comment, then I would just shrug it off. It was dozens, most by different user accounts (some repeats).

Am I the only one who thinks this kid might be autistic/aspergers at least a little bit?

Assburger w/cheese! fo sho!

VERY sad!:td:

No, I agree.

He looks just like Avatards avatar.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_l...10110_main.jpg

No he doesn't. He has a neck...lol

The pot made him do it!

http://www.frumforum.com/did-pot-tri...fords-shooting

I think I called something like this happening (in relation to Cannabis) not too long ago on this board...

There are people up here, who are using it to push an anti-firearm agenda. Compared to Arizona, we practically don't have guns to start with. We're not even int he same country.

Opportunists will use any situation, in order to push their personal agenda.

Idiots will be idiots...but the government has been brainwashing for 80 yrs.
 

There's a link between pot and schizophrenia, but it's unclear.

Regardless, the data DOES NOT support the assumption that schizophrenia is CAUSED by cannabis (as much as some would love to ascribe it to that).

The proof is in the data:

"...here's the conundrum: while marijuana went from being a secret shared by a small community of hepcats and beatniks in the 1940s and '50s to a rite of passage for some 70% of youth by the turn of the century, rates of schizophrenia in the U.S. have remained flat, or possibly declined."

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...005559,00.html

A crime that should be punishable by death

Its happening here too. The people from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence have started testing the waters with the argument that the Assault Weapons Ban's provisions against high capacity magazines allowed this. Pretty soon they will be on every network with the same argument. Again resorting to pure speculation, if the House was still Democrat controlled I believe there would be a very real chance of a new AWB getting rammed through.

People who make their bones by standing on other people's graves sicken me. We had a law, banning people under 21 from having ANY blood alcohol content in their blood while driving rammed through, because a father with money blamed other people for his son being a drunken lout, who took two of his friends with him when he drove into a river.

No legislation will ever stop:

1) Terrorism
2) Risky behavior
3) Stupidity
4) Crimes of Morality

Lawmakers need to concentrate on what they CAN do to help, and stop pandering to alarm.

While it would be nice, this will never happen. Humans are herd animals.

We react to perceived danger in a manner that is completely out of scale to the actual statistical possibility of harm. We worry that our children will be kidnapped or molested by some random stranger. We think that there's a massively impaired driver around every bend. There are terrorists in every small town, who are just waiting for the word to poison our water.

Because of this, governance by sound bite results in votes.

That is the most effective, and really the only, tactic the anti-gun lobby has. They are dependent on emotional arguments swaying people. There are plenty of people who will support the anti-gun position, but when the argument is a logical one they can't get a majority. Hell, they are still trying to use the Virginia Tech massacre as a battering ram to close the so called "gun show loophole", even though that murdering bastard didn't buy any guns at a gun show.

Hopefully once cooler heads prevail people will realize that this murderer (and the VT murderer) are in the middle of two ideas that counter each other. Obviously guns shouldn't be sold to mentally unstable people, but medical privacy laws also mean that a legitimate gun retailer following all the rules isn't going to know about a diagnosis of mental instability even if such a diagnosis has been made.

The former mayor of Toronto, who just recently retired, was trying to push through a city-wide ban on firearms because of "all the gun related deaths in the city." Of course this left out some very important issues:

- gun control is not within the city's purview; it's Federal
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated with illegal firearms
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated by street gang members
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated ON street gang members
- the 'huge number' of murders, in Toronto, is a mere fraction of what can be found in a comparable US city

Sounds about right. I'm just curious to see what, if any, legislation Congress attempts to pass over this massacre.

Both sides....it's sad unfortunately. Except Libertarians. redflip

There's not much point in bribing someone who isn't going to get elected anyway. :lol:

JC

True. Sad, but true.

Apparently they want mercedes benz logos instead of gun sights on Palin's map.

Wow.

I love it when people don't proofread, there is some great protest signs out there on both sides.

Obviously you'll find more elites by looking for Mercedes, than you would looking for guns. They're just giving Palin some useful advice.

proves just about everything ive had to say about those folks. retrograde humans ought to be eaten. :lol: doubt thered be any nutritional value in it though :lol:

So freakshow's fucking parents are all over the news, whining and crying about how they had no idea.

Fucking really? Don't ya think that's odd, since everyone who ever ran into this freakshow said he was one of the most disturbed motherfuckers they ever met?

Fucking assholes raised a fucking mass murderer, and are now gonna pretend they had no clue?

Sorry, fuck you. Not buying it. In my mind, they bear some responsibility.

they can be eaten too

With a fine Chianti and some fava beans?

i was thinking more like some pig slop :lol

The problem is that, after a human bomb like this guy goes off, suddenly EVERYONE says that they saw the warning signs. If they did, then why didn't they do something about it? Try to get some help for the person. Inform the authorities. Something.

Truth is that they just want their Warhol 15 minutes.

Sorta this. Said "authorities" would probably just say that they can't do anything until he actually does something anyhow.

Parents of a friend of freakshow said that he was a nice attention/acceptance seeking kid. He was kind to them like he wanted acceptance from adults that his parents didn't give him. They also said they saw freakshow's mom in the store withe a 30+ case of beer every time they saw her. Alcoholic parents, probably abusive.

Well, it seems our little freakshow was a fan of Zeitgeist and Loose Change.




Note found in home of Arizona shooting suspect called for Giffords to 'Die'

Published: Wednesday, January 12, 2011

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) — The 22-year-old man accused of trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly shooting rampage wrote “Die, bitch” in a note found at his home, a sheriff’s official told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Investigators believe Jared Loughner’s handwritten message was a reference to Giffords, Pima County Chief Rick Kastigar said. It was found in a safe alongside other ones, including “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and the name “Giffords.”

Authorities also revealed other new information about the hours leading up to the Saturday shooting that killed six people and injured 14 others, including Giffords.

That morning, Jared Loughner’s father saw him take a black bag out of a car trunk, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told the AP.

The father approached Loughner, and he mumbled something and took off running, Dupnik said. The father got in his truck and chased his son as he fled on foot.

Loughner took a taxi cab to the supermarket where the three-term Democrat was holding a meeting to hear the concerns of her constituents, authorities said earlier. Among those killed were a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

For all of it, Loughner’s parents, silent and holed up in their home since the shooting spree, apologized Tuesday.

“There are no words that can possibly express how we feel,” Randy and Amy Loughner wrote in a statement handed to reporters waiting outside their house. “We wish that there were, so we could make you feel better. We don’t understand why this happened.

“We care very deeply about the victims and their families. We are so very sorry for their loss.”

The apparent target of the attack, Giffords, 40, was able to breathe on her own Tuesday at an intensive care unit here, another hopeful sign of her progress, doctors said.

Meanwhile, the southern Arizona city shattered by the rampage prepared for an evening memorial service and a visit from President Barack Obama on Wednesday.

In addition the new details about the hours before the shooting, interviews on Tuesday with those who knew Loughner or his family painted a picture of a young loner who did try to fit in.

Before everything fell apart, he went through the motions as many young men do nowadays: Living at home with his parents, working low-wage jobs at big brand stores and volunteering time doing things he liked.

None of it worked. His relationship with his parents was strained. He clashed with co-workers and police. And he couldn’t follow the rules at an animal shelter where he spent some time.

One close high school friend who requested anonymity to avoid the publicity surrounding the case said he would wait outside 10 minutes for Jared to leave the house when they were going out.

When Jared would get into the car, he’d say that it took so long because his parents were hassling him.

The parents of another close friend recalled how Loughner’s parents showed up at their doorstep in 2008 looking for their son, who had left home about a week before and broken off contact.

While the friend, Zach Osler, didn’t want to talk with the AP, his parents Roxanne and George Osler IV did.

With the Loughners at their house, Zach Osler told them the name of the local hotel where their only child was staying, Zach’s father said. Jared moved back in, he said.

After that, Osler’s dad sometimes would see Mrs. Loughner at the local supermarket, though they didn’t chat much. He recalled that every time he saw her she had at least one 30-pack of beer in her cart.


Loughner, now 22, would come over several times a week from 2007 to 2008, the Oslers said.

The boys listened to the heavy metal band Slipknot and progressive rockers The Mars Volta, studied the form of meditative movement called tai chi, and watched and discussed movies.

Loughner’s favorites included little-known conspiracy theory documentaries such as “Zeitgeist” and “Loose Change” as well as bigger studio productions with cult followings and themes of brainwashing, science fiction and altered states of consciousness, including “Donnie Darko” and “A Scanner Darkly.”

Even in small talk, he struck the Oslers as unusual.

“He always said, ’Hi, Mrs. Osler. How are you today?’ When he left he made a point of coming over and saying, ’Thank you for having me over,“’ said Roxanne Osler, noting that was not typical for Zach’s friends. “Jared struck me as a young man who craved attention and acceptance.”

Once he shared with the Oslers a short story he had written about a reporter meeting an angel during the apocalypse.

George Osler IV read it, thought it was well written, but couldn’t identify the point.

“He seemed like he was kind of offended that I didn’t get the message,” George Osler said.

Meanwhile, the unfailingly polite kid they knew was getting into trouble.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting that he vandalized a road sign with a magic marker, scrawling the letters “C” and “X” in a reference to what he said was Christianity.


The police report said Loughner admitted to other acts of vandalism in the area.

The case was ultimately dismissed after he paid a $500 fine and completed a diversion program.

Even when Loughner tried to do good, it didn’t work out.

A year ago, he volunteered walking adoptable dogs at the county animal shelter, said Kim Janes, manager of the Pima Animal Care Center. He liked dogs; neighbors remember him as the kid they would see walking his own.

At the shelter, staff became concerned: He was allowing dogs to play in an area that was being disinfected after one had contracted a potentially deadly disease, the parvovirus.

“He didn’t think the disease was that threatening and when we tried to explain how dangerous some of the diseases are. He didn’t get it,” Janes said.

He wouldn’t agree to keep dogs from the restricted area, and was asked to come back when he would. He never returned.

Loughner also jumped from paid job to job because he couldn’t get along with co-workers, according to the close high school friend who requested anonymity. Employers included a Quiznos sandwich shop and Banana Republic, the friend said.

On his application at the animal shelter, he listed customer service work at Eddie Bauer.

Loughner grew up on an unremarkable Tucson block of low-slung homes with palm trees and cactus gardens out front. Fittingly, it’s called Soledad Avenue — Spanish for solitude.

Solitude found Loughner, even when he tried to escape it. He had buddies but always fell out of touch, typically severing the friendship with a text message. Zach Osler was one such friend.

Loughner’s father moved into the house as a bachelor, and eventually got married, longtime next-door neighbor George Gayan said. Property records show Randy Loughner has lived there since 1977.

Gayan said he and Randy Loughner had “differences of opinion but nothing where it was radical or violent.” He declined to provide specifics. “As time went on, they indicated they wanted privacy,” Gayan said.

Unlike other homes on the block, the Loughners’ is obscured by plants. It was assessed in 2010 at $137,842.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home. He did fix up cars. Gayan said he had three “show cars” and two of Jared Lougher’s friends said he bought a junker ’69 orange Chevrolet Nova and made it pristine.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County’s human resources director.

“She’s worked hard, done a good job of keeping it looking good,” said Charles Ford, a former Tucson City Council member who is a board member of Friends of Agua Caliente Park.

Linda McKinley, 62, has lived down the street from the Loughner family for decades and said the parents could not be nicer — but that she had misgivings about Jared as he got older.

“As a parent, my heart aches for them,” she said.

She added that when she was outside watering her plants she would see Jared riding down the street on his bike, often talking to himself or yelling out randomly to no one.

Once he yelled to some children on the street: “I’m coming to get you!” McKinley said.


TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) — The 22-year-old man accused of trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly shooting rampage wrote “Die, bitch” in a note found at his home, a sheriff’s official told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Investigators believe Jared Loughner’s handwritten message was a reference to Giffords, Pima County Chief Rick Kastigar said. It was found in a safe alongside other ones, including “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and the name “Giffords.”

Authorities also revealed other new information about the hours leading up to the Saturday shooting that killed six people and injured 14 others, including Giffords.

That morning, Jared Loughner’s father saw him take a black bag out of a car trunk, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told the AP.

The father approached Loughner, and he mumbled something and took off running, Dupnik said. The father got in his truck and chased his son as he fled on foot.

Loughner took a taxi cab to the supermarket where the three-term Democrat was holding a meeting to hear the concerns of her constituents, authorities said earlier. Among those killed were a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

For all of it, Loughner’s parents, silent and holed up in their home since the shooting spree, apologized Tuesday.

“There are no words that can possibly express how we feel,” Randy and Amy Loughner wrote in a statement handed to reporters waiting outside their house. “We wish that there were, so we could make you feel better. We don’t understand why this happened.

“We care very deeply about the victims and their families. We are so very sorry for their loss.”

The apparent target of the attack, Giffords, 40, was able to breathe on her own Tuesday at an intensive care unit here, another hopeful sign of her progress, doctors said.

Meanwhile, the southern Arizona city shattered by the rampage prepared for an evening memorial service and a visit from President Barack Obama on Wednesday.

In addition the new details about the hours before the shooting, interviews on Tuesday with those who knew Loughner or his family painted a picture of a young loner who did try to fit in.

Before everything fell apart, he went through the motions as many young men do nowadays: Living at home with his parents, working low-wage jobs at big brand stores and volunteering time doing things he liked.

None of it worked. His relationship with his parents was strained. He clashed with co-workers and police. And he couldn’t follow the rules at an animal shelter where he spent some time.

One close high school friend who requested anonymity to avoid the publicity surrounding the case said he would wait outside 10 minutes for Jared to leave the house when they were going out.

When Jared would get into the car, he’d say that it took so long because his parents were hassling him.

The parents of another close friend recalled how Loughner’s parents showed up at their doorstep in 2008 looking for their son, who had left home about a week before and broken off contact.

While the friend, Zach Osler, didn’t want to talk with the AP, his parents Roxanne and George Osler IV did.

With the Loughners at their house, Zach Osler told them the name of the local hotel where their only child was staying, Zach’s father said. Jared moved back in, he said.

After that, Osler’s dad sometimes would see Mrs. Loughner at the local supermarket, though they didn’t chat much. He recalled that every time he saw her she had at least one 30-pack of beer in her cart.

Loughner, now 22, would come over several times a week from 2007 to 2008, the Oslers said.

The boys listened to the heavy metal band Slipknot and progressive rockers The Mars Volta, studied the form of meditative movement called tai chi, and watched and discussed movies.

Loughner’s favorites included little-known conspiracy theory documentaries such as “Zeitgeist” and “Loose Change” as well as bigger studio productions with cult followings and themes of brainwashing, science fiction and altered states of consciousness, including “Donnie Darko” and “A Scanner Darkly.”

Even in small talk, he struck the Oslers as unusual.

“He always said, ’Hi, Mrs. Osler. How are you today?’ When he left he made a point of coming over and saying, ’Thank you for having me over,“’ said Roxanne Osler, noting that was not typical for Zach’s friends. “Jared struck me as a young man who craved attention and acceptance.”

Once he shared with the Oslers a short story he had written about a reporter meeting an angel during the apocalypse.

George Osler IV read it, thought it was well written, but couldn’t identify the point.

“He seemed like he was kind of offended that I didn’t get the message,” George Osler said.

Meanwhile, the unfailingly polite kid they knew was getting into trouble.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting that he vandalized a road sign with a magic marker, scrawling the letters “C” and “X” in a reference to what he said was Christianity.

The police report said Loughner admitted to other acts of vandalism in the area.

The case was ultimately dismissed after he paid a $500 fine and completed a diversion program.

Even when Loughner tried to do good, it didn’t work out.

A year ago, he volunteered walking adoptable dogs at the county animal shelter, said Kim Janes, manager of the Pima Animal Care Center. He liked dogs; neighbors remember him as the kid they would see walking his own.

At the shelter, staff became concerned: He was allowing dogs to play in an area that was being disinfected after one had contracted a potentially deadly disease, the parvovirus.

“He didn’t think the disease was that threatening and when we tried to explain how dangerous some of the diseases are. He didn’t get it,” Janes said.

He wouldn’t agree to keep dogs from the restricted area, and was asked to come back when he would. He never returned.

Loughner also jumped from paid job to job because he couldn’t get along with co-workers, according to the close high school friend who requested anonymity. Employers included a Quiznos sandwich shop and Banana Republic, the friend said.

On his application at the animal shelter, he listed customer service work at Eddie Bauer.

Loughner grew up on an unremarkable Tucson block of low-slung homes with palm trees and cactus gardens out front. Fittingly, it’s called Soledad Avenue — Spanish for solitude.

Solitude found Loughner, even when he tried to escape it. He had buddies but always fell out of touch, typically severing the friendship with a text message. Zach Osler was one such friend.

Loughner’s father moved into the house as a bachelor, and eventually got married, longtime next-door neighbor George Gayan said. Property records show Randy Loughner has lived there since 1977.

Gayan said he and Randy Loughner had “differences of opinion but nothing where it was radical or violent.” He declined to provide specifics. “As time went on, they indicated they wanted privacy,” Gayan said.

Unlike other homes on the block, the Loughners’ is obscured by plants. It was assessed in 2010 at $137,842.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home. He did fix up cars. Gayan said he had three “show cars” and two of Jared Lougher’s friends said he bought a junker ’69 orange Chevrolet Nova and made it pristine.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County’s human resources director.

“She’s worked hard, done a good job of keeping it looking good,” said Charles Ford, a former Tucson City Council member who is a board member of Friends of Agua Caliente Park.

Linda McKinley, 62, has lived down the street from the Loughner family for decades and said the parents could not be nicer — but that she had misgivings about Jared as he got older.

“As a parent, my heart aches for them,” she said.

She added that when she was outside watering her plants she would see Jared riding down the street on his bike, often talking to himself or yelling out randomly to no one.

Once he yelled to some children on the street: “I’m coming to get you!” McKinley said.

Sounds about right.

Not surprising.

Ya'll think the Glifford family is gonna hold the dad responsible?

No, she's a politician and hes a astronaut, they understand good and bad publicity, and holding the parents responsible would turn into bad publicity, especially without concrete proof. Maybe a few comments about his parents and his upbringing in the book the congressman is gonna write eventually about this but that should be it. As a dem she is gonna go holier than thou on gun control though, wouldnt surprise me to see some states require a psych eval before you can purchase a gun.

I agree with most of this, but she may not go for the gun control thing. From what I understand she has been about as pro-gun as a Democrat is going to get. I figure its about 30/70 odds Giffords introduces gun control legislation named after Christina Green. I would put better odds, maybe 60/40, that if Giffords has most of her faculties after she recovers she will be running against Kyl for his Senate seat in 2012.

Ennnnhhhh, not so much, as it turns out.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...h-intervention

He was apparently already causing considerable alarm.

Then this case is pretty different from the norm, and someone seriously dropped the ball.

Sounds akin to the Fort Hood shooter. Signs all over the place, but no one wanted to rock the boat and send the guy to mental health counseling.

Not sure that it would have been productive in this case - particularly since the kid had a "me vs. them" mentality, and any attempt to try and get through to him would probably have been dismissed.

There was a shooter at Fort Hood? Oh yea that's right....that one kinda got swept under the rug eh?

Dude hasn't even been tried yet