Military fatalities...
 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/30/mar...les/index.html

Marine motorcycle deaths top their Iraq combat fatalitiesStory Highlights
25 Marines killed on motorcycles in past 12 months, compared with 20 killed in Iraq

Top Marine official: "The Marines are very serious about" addressing problem

All but one of the deaths have involved super-fast sport bikes

Marines have recently implemented a mandatory sport-bike course

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From Larry Shaughnessy
CNN Pentagon Producer


QUANTICO, Virginia (CNN) -- Motorcycle accidents have killed more Marines in the past 12 months than enemy fire in Iraq, a rate that's so alarming it has prompted top brass to call a meeting to address the issue, officials say.


Despite crashes, Gunnery Sgt. Art Tucker rides a sport motorcycle. "I enjoy it. ... It relaxes me," he says.

Twenty-five Marines have died in motorcycle crashes since last November -- all but one of them involving sport bikes that can reach speeds of well over 100 mph, according to Marine officials. In that same period, 20 Marines have been killed in action in Iraq.

The 25 deaths are the highest motorcycle death toll ever for the Marine Corps.

Gen. James Amos, the assistant commandant of the Marine Corps, told CNN that commanders are trying to drill down on what "we need to do to help our Marines survive on these sport bikes."

"The Marines are very serious about it," he said. Watch these aren't your father's Harleys »

Marine Gunnery Sgt. Art Tucker knows all too well about the dangers of sport bikes. An owner of a Kawasaki Ninja, Tucker has had two crashes, and the second one nearly killed him.

"I sustained a broken collar bone, I tore the shoulder out of the socket, I tore three ligaments in the shoulder, the rotator cuff, I broke three vertebrae," said Tucker, a drill instructor for new officers.

"The worst was a head injury I received: a bruised brain. And it caused hemorrhaging, and from that I had partial paralysis of the left leg, full paralysis of the left foot and toes, and that was for approximately six months."

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Amos said he and other top Marine officials will spend half the day Monday "focusing on nothing but motorcycle issues." The commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. James Conway, and other senior leadership will attend the meeting at the Quantico, Virginia, Marine base, he said.

About 18,000 of the nearly 200,000 Marines are believed to own motorcycles, Amos said.

The Marines have taken some measures. The Marine Corps has had a long-standing policy for all Marines who ride motorcycles to take a mandatory basic riding course. More recently, it added a second training course specifically designed to train Marines who ride sport bikes.

Any Marine caught riding, even on leave, without going through the training courses faces Marine Corps punishment, officials say.

On a recent day at the Quantico training track, Marines whizzed by on their bikes.

"I think the basic rider course has been great," said Cpl. Austin Oakley. "Here, they put you in situations you want to be weary of out in that open road."

Oakley said he recently returned to the United States from Japan, and he immediately jumped at the chance to buy a sport bike. He said it's not uncommon for Marines to have motorcycle clubs within their units.

"We'll go out on rides together. Fridays for lunchtime, we'll all meet up and go to lunch," Oakley said. "When I get on my motorcycle, it's me and the motorcycle. I don't need to go fast. I don't need to do anything like that. It's just being free."

The rise in motorcycle deaths isn't confined to Marines. The Navy says it's had 33 deaths on motorcycles over the past 12 months -- a 65 percent jump from the previous time period. And authorities say motorcycle deaths have been a problem in the civilian world, too.

Military officials say they're not sure why the deaths are on the rise. They initially believed the accidents might involve mostly young Marines and sailors around 18 or 19 years old. But Navy statistics show that five of the victims were 25, the most prevalent of any age involved in the crashes. And two 40-year-old sailors were killed in motorcycle crashes.

Gen. Amos said the Marines have seen a similar trend.

But he says the new training seems to be working: Of the 300 young men and women who have gone through the sport-bike course, only three have had accidents.

The safety course instructors said some Marines who go through the training decide the sport bike is not for them.


But even some Marines who've survived past crashes still want to ride again, even after they get the new training.

"I enjoy it," said Tucker. "I can actually get on my motorcycle and ride, and it's just like if I were to do bowling or rock climbing or scuba diving. It's something for me. It relaxes me."

I am a JSMSP certified, and I coach the MSF course on base at NAS Jax on occasion. They've started implementing the sportbike course there. It's tough, and not everybody who tries will pass it. I think it's a good thing.

It might help if they bring that tougher sport bike specific training to the civilian world. :idk: Wouldn't hurt that's for sure.

I completely agree, unfortunately we don't have the infrastructure in place to enforce than kind of mandate in the "civilian" world.

That and motorcycle awareness for all the cagers...

HOLY SHIT OVER 100 MPH!!!!!!

Srsly though, MSF beginner course to start out, then the advanced course when you want to get over a 750 for EVERYONE.

IF you had a insightful government regulating the insurance companies you could possibly enlist THEIR assets in offering / providing rider training. IF you had enough of a break on the $2400-$4800 per year premiums you would get the consumers support...IF.

As it is no, not enough deaths, not enough $$ lost by insurers...

I just saw this and was getting ready to post it. Its sad really. 25 in the Marines and 33 in the navy, just in the last year.

Yeah, we should definitely have a gradiated license system for motorcyclists. We have some of the toughest laws governing the operation of a motorcycle (ie speeding tickets) yet we still havemore fatalities than any European country. IMO that's because of greater awareness because of more prevalance and the licensing systems they have there.

The insurers will never lose "enough" because they'll just keep raising rates. They should take action to try and educate, but they don't really care.

The Marines number is worse for the number of riders. 25 out of 18,000 in one year. Last year in 07 the average for all riders in the US was only near 8 deaths per 10,000 registered motorcycles.

Maybe the statistics just speak highly of our military prowess...I mean if it is safer to be deployed in a a hostile country with suicidal terrorists bent on your destruction than ride a motorcycle in your own country:idk:

Perhaps the media blows our combat caualties out of proportion:idk:

Either way one death is just too many if anyone, govt, insurance co, friends, can do anything to avoid it!

Not just the Navy and Marines, but the Army also has a training program. From the Denver Post: "The Army, which also has a training program, lost 36 soldiers in sport-bike accidents in the same time period (as the Navy and Marine study). The accidents follow a pattern: excessive speed, poor cornering and insufficient braking." Full article: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_10816770.

Cornering and braking can be taught. As for the excessive speed thing, I'm still trying to learn that myself.

I think a lot of it has to do with mindset. Once you've dealt with insurgents, IED's, and ambushes your perception of "dangerous" is somewhat skewed. I would imagine it would take some time for the soldiers to readjust and realize that a motorcycle will kill you just as quickly as a bullet if you do not respect it.

This story is based from the annual DOD report that was recently pulished. The only branch of the military to have a positive trend (less accidents) was the Air Force.

That being said, I am not saying the Air Force is any better just that this year we had better numbers. Air Mobility Command in the Air Force has been teaching a Sportbike Safety course for about 2 years now and it is a quality course but it is not enough. IMO mentorship is the real answer for the military issue. Teaching the "young-uns" and "newbies" the respect that these bikes require is the best solution. Regardless of their age.

I'm not about making more laws to protect the stupid and make the rest of our lives a headache. Already too much government involvement in matters across the spectrum as it is.

I think there was actually an article published reflecting this very opinion. there was a large rash of young military men that died last year almost immediately upon returning to the states. I think the interviews conducted were basically the guys trying to get the adrenaline rush they didnt have back in the states, and with the skewed perception after spending so much time on the front line, they were basically trying to find some other way to retain what they viewed as "normal" after their wartime experiences.

It's a shame, but it's true. One of my ex girlfriends was an MP that had done a tour in Iraq, and she had issues with PTSD, and I think this is almost a form of that.

Personally, I think the main reason that we have problems like this and PTSD is because of the rapid transition soldiers have now that they didn't in the past. Now, and in Vietnam, soldiers go rather quickly from the front line home without adequate time to adjust. In WWII it took months for soldiers to get home, instead of going right from combat to a helicopter ride to a rear base and immediately onto a jet home they had to march back from the front line, wait to get billeted on a ship, then spend a few weeks on a ship coming home. That gave them time to readjust from a combat mindset to a non-combat mindset, instead of having to do it almost virtually overnight.

:iagree:

:dthumb: Indeed! I'm all for the mentorship program (I happen to be a mentor) and I'd hate to see more rules placed on motorcyclists. Sadly, I have no say in the matter since the military is essentially a socialist dictatorship.

Thankfully, the average American has the Republic to protect them from folks picking up a pen and suddenly making a new rule just because they think it might help out in the smallest amount.

You also have to keep in mind they didn't diagnose any one with ptsd back then that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Hell the first documented motorcycle hooligans were a bunch of WWII vets that got kicked out the AMA for raising to much hell at AMA events...

its more like hunting for the same level of adrenaline rush. im sure these numbers will come down when we are back at a peacetime state. not likely to happen anytime soon though

thanks rae, i should really read the entire threads before i say things lol

it gets far easier after the first couple times. just like anything else. between the fireblade and paintball im pretty happy these days :dthumb:

Add to that the guys are now invincible. They have been shot at, and people have tried to blow them up for at least a year... they made it out and now can take on ANYTHING.

I don't think it's a training issue. The only reason I state that - Killeen has had that stat (more deaths on motorcycles than the war) for longer than the Marines and the Army has the training requirement taken care of (MSF).

I think it's an adrenalin issue. We're partnering with Ft. Hood and Sam Houston to get the boys to the track... the military is going to pay for entrance AND gear... we are agreeing there is a time and a place for most anything.

We're trying...

That is awesome, getting them on the track is an amazing idea!

I tried pitching that to my command in July. My skipper was willing to give every sportbike rider the oppotunity to go out to the track to check it out. I would try to pitch it here too if I thought this base would go for it.

Add another one to the list. :panic:

http://www.pnj.com/article/20081103/...029/1006/RSS01

I was at Mc D's when i seen the cop lights fly by and sure off when I got home I seen this.