Bad Bike Day
 

So I jumped on my bike and rode it up to the gym to lift today and it ran perfect for the short 2 mile trip. After I got done I go out to ride home and sure enough the thing wont start. I went over all the basic stuff, checked the choke was on (tried it on and off), made sure it was in neutral (also tried in first with the clutch pulled and neutral with clutch pulled), flipped the kill switch a few times and still nothing. The starter seems to work but the engine wont turn over. So i end up walking home since I couldnt get a hold of someone to give me a ride. I drive back up there and try it again in case I had flooded it and still nothing. To top it off no one had a truck I could use to get it home so I called the tow company figuring its only a bike and its only 2 miles, plus my insurance should reimburse me for it. They bring a full size car flatbed and ended up charging me $135 to put it on the flatbed, only tie it down with 2 straps, and then tow it 2 miles. Needless to say, we are waiting for a call back from the tow company's owner about the ridiculous charge. Not real happy with my bike right now. $135 spent and it still doesnt start and Ill probably have to pay a dealer to come get it and fix it since I dont have a truck or trailer, plus whatever it costs to fix it.

:rant:

Damn, hate to hear that.

did you try poppin the clutch? could it be the battery?

Tried it and it seemed like it barely wanted to start that way too. It felt like it was trying but wasnt even close to fully starting. And I checked to make sure the battery connection was tight and it was still cranking strongly. Now the battery is getting close to being dead from all the tries so Ill be charging it again tonight to see if I can get it to start tomorrow morning.

Check the battery voltage... needs to be at least 12.8
Carbed right?

Has gas right?
Petcock not on off or on ON with too little gas... try reserve. (both have happened to even me)

Don't go taking it to the dealer right off.

Can you get the gas tank off and remove the aircleaner so we can see the carbs? Verify they are indeed getting gas.

Then once you are that far... remove a spark plug wire, hook in another one and see if its getting spark. Really any spark plug will do.

Could you also look at cleaning the solenoid contacts?

I was hoping youd chime in. The petcock hasnt been touched since its set up weird on this bike and the only switch seems to be under the tank. Battery Im going to have to get something to check. My first guess was either spark plugs or dirty carbs but I probably wont have time to tear it apart until friday to check those things. How hard is it to clean carbs and such if thats the issue? Ive never messed with a carb before.

Last time the bike has been ridden? Bad gas? Definitely check all listed above

Carbs aren't hard to clean, but its the inspection that should be done by someone that knows what to look for. ALL OF WHICH shows the need for a service manual of some kind, whether it be a factory or aftermarket.

I always suggest people in your situation and wrench expierence. Get the carbs off yourself. Take them to a mechanic (not always the dealership but maybe a private shop) and get them cleaned and sync'ed.

Being that its not running at all, tells me that its not just dirty carbs. I would ask about the bad gas but it sounds like you ride it regulary and therefor fresh gas.

The petcock most likely has a screening on it. That screening could be clogged and not allowing gas flow. Clogged with anything from general debris to your tank lining breaking down. What do you mean never touched it and its under the tank? Its not a switch so much as its a valve. Below is a picture of my old big dog petcock (made by pingle) and you can see the screening and the tube. The long tube is the normal ON position being it sticks UP from the bottom of the carb. When the fuel level falls below that, you swing the valve to reserve where it picks up from the base of the petcock and allows you to further drain more gas from the tank.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...leaning009.jpg

Does it have a fuel filter that could be clogged? This is why I would like to know for sure the carbs are getting gas. You can also put gas in a spray bottle and spray into the carbs and see if it starts that way...

I strgonly suggest you work on it yourself. Even though I hate working on down bikes during riding season it is part of the life.

Remember this... a motor is nothing more than a big air pump. It sucks air in, squeezes it and pumps air out. You only need 3 things, after the obvious compression, to start...

gas
air
spark

Air is always there
Gas has to get there and be fresh
spark has to present and is easy to verify

as I said being its not running ruff, and saying you have good gas... I am betting on eletrical. With your rockets.. I'm wondering if on your yam... will the various kill sensor like kickstand and shit. Do they enhibit the starter or just the ignition? Most of the time its the starter... so that brings up

Is your kickstand up or down while trying to start?
what about nuetral and clutch?

And correct me if I'm wrong... the bike is cranking over...

The gas was just pumped into the bike last week and it has been probably 50 miles on this tank so I dont think its bad gas. The petcock valve on my bike is tucked under the tank for some reason so I dont use any type of reserve (unless Ive always just looked right by it).

I do have a haynes manual that I was looking through and getting the carbs off doesnt seem like itll be too hard so I probably will do what you suggest and take them up to a mechanic myself.

It could be a clogged filter somewhere and Ill hopefully be able to check those on friday. Im off all day and hoping to take everything apart to hopefully find the problem.

And yes, the bike is trying to crank and sounds strong when doing so, but the motor wont turn over. I didnt seem to smell any fuel like it was being flooded or anything which leads me to believe its the gas part of the start that may be the issue. I tried to start it both with the stand up, and with it down, like I usually start it.

You can always PM Erik (wideopen1) and he could give you some ideas or maybe even help you work on it since we aren't that far away.

I wouldn't take to a dealer just yet. Exhaust all options first.

I may take you up on that, I didnt even remember he was on the board.

I probably wont be taking it to a dealer unless I cant figure it out or if I take just the carbs to someone to work on.

Yeah, he just registered a week or so ago.
He is still home all day.. no job yet unfortunately.

Don't be afraid to ask. We will help where we can!

Damn, sorry to hear that.

I may be shooting him a PM in the next day or so if I know for sure that Ill be working on it friday. Id gladly pay for his gas to get here and for his help if hed be willing to.

I want you to verify spark....

And the filter will be easy to find IF it has one. Don't laugh... many bikes dont have one.

Verify fuel flow from the tank... remove your fuel line from the tank and see if it comes flowing...

Thats probably one of the first things Ill check on friday or if I get time tomorrow night after work. Im really not sure if mine does have a fuel filter or not but Ill be checking that out as well.

Sounds like no spark. Nine times out of ten, the safety switch on the kickstand is dirty. I would also check the fuses.

I'm in the Kickstand switch camp as well... it's the only "sudden" problem I can think of, except the possibility of the tip over switch having fallen off of it's mount.:idk: I agree that you need to check the fuses and see if the fuel pump is running...

Just in case...

http://www.repairmanualclub.com/moto...x.php?dlid=573

Man this situation is all too familiar to me. I'm still not certain what my problem was...but double check that battery. Put it on a Tender anyway. And I'd stop riding that bitch such short trips. Battery won't charge.

You said the starter "seemed to work" but the bike won't turn over.

Could you hear the started moving? If it's moving and the bike isn't turning over, it could be that the started gear is FUBAR, or that the solenoid is dirty or just plain busted (ala GasMan).

But, let's back up a step first. Put a voltmeter on the battery after charging it. If you don't have a voltmeter, stop reading now, and go get one.

Hi. Welcome back. Ok, what's the voltmeter say? 12.75 or so? Good, but that means nothing. Even though the battery is "charged", you may just have what is called a "surface charge". Hit the starter button, and watch the voltmeter. If the reading drops more than 1-2 volts, you have a dead cell, no fluid in the battery, or some other fucked up battery problem.

Kick stand switches: The Safety-Nazi asshole who came up this this idea, should be shot in the balls. "Hey, I have an idea, lets put a switch that can disable the bike, in a place where it's sure to get dirty and fail!" Cut that fucking thing off and throw it away. Bridge the wires to complete the circuit, or get creative, and wire up a toggle switch in a hidden location (instant anti-theft device).

JC

Im going to grab a voltmeter from work tomorrow and throw the battery on the tender tomorrow as well. I just got done fighting with verizon about a extra $80 that was on my bill, so I didnt mess with it at all tonight. This way friday Ill have my voltmeter to test the battery and the battery should be fully charged (unless its the cause of this). I thought about the kickstand switch and will check that as well.

The starter was cranking, but the engine wont turn over.

I also did find that there is a fuel filter and where it is (thanks to the haynes manual) so thats one of the first things Ill be checking after the battery and kickstand switch.

On a good note I did get the tow charge dropped to $75 and got my verizon mistake dropped from $80 to $5.

Please verify this... or is more like

starter was cranking
engine is turning over but won't fire?

This is why I hate diagnosing bike problems on the internet.

JC

I'm betting weak battery, its that time of year. Jump it off a NON running car battery. I bet it starts right up.

Have you cleaned or replaced any parts resently like say cleaned and over oiled the K&N air filter.

Batteries are always a source of problems.

if you jump start it... ALWAYS ALWAYS do it off a NON-running car!!!!

OK. I'll make sure he checks in.

But this is what he said in the initial post;
"The starter seems to work but the engine wont turn over."
If the engine won't turn over, that's not a fuel related issue, obviously.
From what I've read, askmrjesus has given you the best instruction so far, and I have to say I approve 100% of all the swear words he used in his post too :rockwoot:

I'm betting battery too.

Not enough juice to engage the gear?

Perhaps. I'm pretty sure mine was/is a battery issue...and he's describing the same symptoms.

Yeah that sounds about right. The starter was cranking but the engine wouldnt fire.

Understandable. I hate trying to describe them online.

Thats what I was thinking too. I had an issue with it before so it may finally be done for completely. If I can get it to start fresh off the charger Ill probably just replace it.

I know what you mean, I have a hard time doing that myself.

"Well, it kind of goes wrrrrrrr and then tictictic...BOOM!" :lol:

JC

Engine cranking but not firing...

I'm saying its not the battery.

I'm thinking either a safety nazi switch or something with the ignition or coils... maybe fuel related like no fuel.

I'm wondering how strong the cranking really is...

It seems strong as normal, but I also dont pay as much attention to it usually since it starts right up. Ive got the battery on the charger right now so Im going to see if itll start with a freshly charged battery and check the battery with a voltmeter and go from there. If that doesnt work itll be on to the fuel filter, spark plugs, etc.

I went out about 5 minutes ago and hooked up my freshly charged battery to see if I could get it to start and no such luck. One thing that I did notice is that it seemed like everytime Id go out to start it before a few days ago and the bike had been sitting for more than a short period of time, there would be a noise when I flipped the kill switch. I typically turn the key, open the choke, flip the killswitch to run, then hit the starter (bike in neutral) and it would start. But it would also make a sort of clicking noise after turning the killswitch to run, almost like the fuel pump priming itself or something. Well today I noticed that its not making that noise at all. Is this possibly part of the problem? It makes me think its fuel related, but I could be way off.

Is that bike carb or FI?

Carb

It's carbed, with a fuel pump.

Jojo, the clicking noise sounds like it could be a relay, but it's hard to tell without hearing said clicking noise.

My fuel pump makes what I would call a "whining" noise when activated, YMMV.

Assuming the battery is okay, you need to verify that the pump is getting juice, so check the fuse if you haven't already done so, and check the connections for corrosion, etc... I believe the pump is external on those bikes, so sorting them out isn't too big of a pain. You'll likely have to remove the tank to get to it. The pump will have an in and an out. There may even be a diagram on the bottom of the fuel tank that says which is which.

Get some clear vinyl tubing, and attach it to both ports, then stick both of them into a gas can (with gas in it), and hit the switch, (I usually do this while smoking a cigarette, but since you're a novice, you may want to skip that step...) if gas comes in and goes out, you can rule out a pump problem.

JC

Got it, definitely not a whining noise.

Ill check those things out and then probably pull the tank off. I was figuring on having to do that anyway in order to check the fuel filter and to get to the plugs easier anyway.

I already have a gas can with gas so Ill just grab some vinyl tubing while Im out running errands to check the pump. And Ill skip the smoking step since Im only a mere mortal and dont smoke.

Thanks for the suggestions and if anything else comes to mind feel free to add it to the list. Ive never had to trouble shoot a bike a before so Im completely new to this.

Oh yes... the fuel pumped carbed bikes... my buds honda shadow is that way. His would still start but it had a blown relay.

Do you have a service manual? This is why I tell all you grasshoppers to have one.

I have a haynes manual, no actual service manual.

A lot of times the fuel and blinker relays are the same and can be swaped to cheak them. Not always but a lot of the time.

I still say try the jump my wifes F4 had a bad battery it would take a charge and would crank the bike for about 5 min 6 seconds at a tiem of course then die. The battery was just weak may be a cell out and the bike would start right up with with a jump from a strong battery.

I assume you have a car and cables its a easy way to check the battery.

Again I ask have you done any maintenance lately it always sems to be the problem. Even if you only lifted they tank or seat to look at some thing you could have pinched a hose or unpluged some thing and did not notice.



Carbed bikes are easy to see if they are getting fuel they have a drain screw on the float bowls you only need to open it. Bad fuel pumps on carbed bikes are common because they are very low pressure and volume. They are only there to over come the pressure of the ram air system and or the fact that the carbs may be higher than the bottom of the tank.

They have to be weak or they would bypass the float valve.

Most carbed bikes will start and idle fine with out the fuel pump aslong as the carbs are filling(lower than the level of fuel IE: fulltank) But then run like crap once the speeds increase or the revs build faster than the carbs can refill.

I'd put a little gas in the carbs and see if it starts...

Gee it's too bad that someone didn't post a way for you to get a manual online for free....

Im about to try the jump right now.

Dont pat yourself on the back too hard, you posted one for a 1999-2002 r6. I dont ride an r6, I ride a yzf600r, different bike.

Man I have spent the last half hour trying to figure out how to send you this fucking repair manual!!! Grrrrrr!!!!!

Well there's your problem...:lol:


Hmm... that's true but wouldn't the R6 manual help?:idk:

It may help some. Im just trying some fairly basic stuff so the haynes is helping.

Question time. Now that the bikes in pieces right now, how do I know if the fuel filter is trash? I think it may be but Im still not sure thats the problem. And right now Im pulling the spark plugs to see if they spark or not.

Gas is WAY better at this than me but you can pull the gas line and run it into a container, turn on the key and see if you are flowing the proper amount of gas per minute. To be honest, if you haven't changed it, it's probably due by now. The main thing to look for is if you are getting gas flow at all, if not it's your fuel pump.

Thats what Im thinking. The filter looks kind of dark inside with only a small section that is clean that looks like it flows properly so Im going to hopefully get a new filter tomorrow morning (all 3 main dealers around here closed at 6) and Ill probably just replace the plugs since I have the bike pulled apart already and they look a little rough.

Well see if your fuel pump is working... take the fuel line off the carbs and stick it a cup or whatnot and turn on the key. It should flow pretty fast. Your manual may give you the ml per minute number...

Too bad this is the wrong manual, it's very informative!

Ill be testing the pump because it looks like its either the fuel filter or the pump. The plugs arent in as bad of shape as I thought and are getting good spark. Me and my buddy tried to get it to fire by adding gas straight to the carbs but by that point the battery was too dead to do any good. Hopefully Ill get it to start tomorrow by adding gas straight to the carbs and narrow it down to a fuel problem.

Diet Pepsi?

JC

The fuel pump was taking gas in and spitting it back out so it doesnt look like thats the cause of this. I tried starting the bike by adding gas straight to the carbs with a fresh battery and got nothing. It sounded like it started to fire, but still wont fully start. I also noticed for the first time that the tach randomly jumped to about 7k and then came back down. Im not sure if theres a short some where or what caused it, or if its related to my problem.

Ive checked the fuel pump, fuel filter, spark plugs, fuses, battery and connections, and Im running out of ideas as to what the problem is. Any suggestions or advice or am I stuck taking it to a dealership?

Did you check the plugs for actual spark, or just have a look at them?

JC

Pack up your stuff and drive it down here.

When you check spark, make sure you check more than one plug...

Tested for spark.

Dont have access to a vehicle to get it there. I drive a mustang so packing a bike into it isnt a good idea, otherwise Id do that.

Thought about that. Only checked one yesterday and I was busy all day today so I only checked the fuel pump.

Chances are, if you've got spark in one, you have spark in all four, but test all four anyway.

Someone else mentioned this, but it didn't seem likely, since, as far as I know, you haven't had the bike apart recently, but check all the vacuum lines for kinks, holes, etc.

I'd also verify that the choke cable is working.

Have you tried bump starting it? If you can get it to fire that way, that would help eliminate a lot of possible causes.

JC

I figured. :(

Well,it could be the ignition module,advancer (or equivalent), also your bike probably has separate ignition coils (at least two anyway) so one plug may spark but the others don't. If you have fuel in the chamber and you have spark, the engine has no choice but to fire imho.:idk: Man you didn't wash it or something did you? I've seen water get into the "module" area (where the fuses and relays are) or into the ecu connections before and cause problems... You don't have a power commander do you? Make sure you check all of your fuses, relays and ecu connections.

Tried to push start it a couple times the day it went dead and it barely tried to start. No where near actually firing.

Havent had it apart recently but Ive been looking for any lines or hoses that dont look right and havent seen anything.

Believe me, at this point if I had a way to get it there Id bring it down tomorrow or tuesday and take you up on your offer.

Havent washed it recently (been meaning to but havent had time lately) and no power commander. I checked the fuses and as many connections and relays as I could find. Im going to go back over all of them tomorrow.

And Im with you on if it has spark and fuel it should fire. Thats why Im starting to get real frustrated by this. It seems like it should run and that any issue should be very simple but I cant get it to.

No friends with trucks to get it down here? How far away do you live from Lodi? Do you have a decent place to work on it? Tools?

The only person that had a truck around me was my uncle but he moved to florida last year. Im guessing maybe an hour or so, not for sure on that though. Its in pieces in my garage so space isnt a problem and I have a decent set of regular tools and havent run into anything yet that I couldnt do with regular hand tools on my bike, other than the home made fender eliminator that all I needed was a drill and dremel.

My Zuk used to not wanna start from time to time. I'd change all 4 plugs and she'd fire right up. Coincidently it also ran pretty rich...and fouled plugs. :idk:

I think Im gonna change the plugs and fuel filter (just since the tank is off) and see if it starts. If not then itll be going to the shop. Im really starting to think its electrical and I dont want to try to find a short or whatever it is since I hate messing with that type of thing. Ive had a few people tell me they think its a short, especially since the tach jumps on its own when the bike isnt even running.

Yea I wish you had the service manual because that could be a code for a particular problem. GSXRs can tell you what the problem is based on where they stop on the tach when you turn the key on...

That would be nice. For some reason Ive never seen a service manual for my bike, thats actually why I went with the haynes manual in the first place. The haynes is a great help, but it doesnt do any real troubleshooting.

I changed out the plugs this afternoon and also double checked all the hoses, lines, wires, connections, and fuses and still cant get it to run. As of right now Im just trying to find someone with a trailer or truck to get the bike to the dealer and just let them fix it and charge me out the ass for it.

If you have a home depot near by some have trucks you can rent pretty cheap.

I actually work at Home Depot but thats kind of a last resort since itd be a pain in the ass to get the bike up into the truck but its a possibility. Im seeing if I can find something with a tow hitch and see if any local uhaul has motorcycle trailers.

Rather than hauling to a dealer and paying out the ass, haul it down here!

I was thinking about that. If wideopen thinks he can fix it I may do just that but Im completely out of ideas right now.

Here ya go...

http://rapidshare.com/files/49522145/YZF600R-FSM.pdf

Hit the free user button, and go grab a beer, it takes a few minutes to download.

There's a section for diagnosing problems via the Tach, starting on page 60 of Chapter 8.

I didn't read the whole thing, but you might have a bad throttle position sensor.

JC

Thanks man. Ill be downloading that tomorrow and seeing if it gives me any last ideas before I resort to a dealer.

Good luck, brother. I know how frustrating this can be. Hopefully that manual tells you something.


And if you do end up taking it to the shop...are there any good independent shops around? Rather than Yami dealers. They are most definately cheaper and probly do better work.

The only one that I know of is a motorcycle performance shop that I was going to check into. I know that they do a lot of performance stuff and race type bikes but I dont know if they do regular fixes though.

Would that be MPH in Peninsula (or whatever the area is called near State 8)? Doug is a good guy. I'd take it there before a dealer. He and Erik raced together.

As far as Erik fixing your bike? Neither of know if he can or not. Personally, I think he could because he is good with stuff like that is why I keep pushing him and you. But it's like leading the horse to water, you can't make it drink...

Yep thats the place. I forgot that place was even there until I passed it after I went to state 8 to get new plugs.

I think Ive got it narrowed down to some sort of timing issue which is something that I dont plan on messing with so I think this time its going to the dealer. I really appreciate the offer but hopefully once this problem is fixed the only time Ill be heading down there is to go riding with you guys.

Just curious but how many miles on the bike?

Right about 6k

was out all w/e..

summary...

where do we stand on this?

What has been checked? The thread got kinda confusing...

Dude your bike didn't break...it committed suicide from neglect!:lol:

And these motherfuckers talk about me not riding. Shit.

We've ruled out everything, except for what's wrong with it. :lol:

JC

Accurate statement.

Doug would fix your bike if you want to take it to him over a dealer. I know he would do an excellent job and the price would be right. He comes highly recommended!

Basically. I dont ride as much as Id like to. I have about 4500 miles on it in two seasons. I bought it just over two years ago with under 2k miles.

That sums it up pretty well.

Do this if its not too much hassle...

most anything is better than most dealerships.

Boy I'm the last one to argue with that!

I think Im going to call them in the morning and see when they can look at it. If its nothing soon Ive already got a reservation to drop it off at the dealer tomorrow night and be looked at friday.

I'd do the Doug thing too, but it sounds like you want to take it to the dealer which surely will cost more. Don't get paralyzed a decision is better than no decision.

I didnt necessarily want to take it to a dealer, I wanted to fix it myself. The thing is, I have no problem fixing a problem, but I hate troubleshooting things to find the problem. So after I tried to find the problem for a few days I finally got pissed and just said fuck it and called the dealer. I had already made the plans to get it there before I found out about the guy at mph so I just said what the hell and took it to the dealer. If I end up with any other issues that I cant figure out it will definitely be going to mph.

It will be interesting to see what the problem was. Keep us posted

Will do. Im hoping to hear something tomorrow but we'll see what happens.

UPDATE: Just heard from the dealer this morning, and now I get to spend a bunch of money. Turns out the little spark my buddy said he say wasnt nearly enough to fire the bike. They said one of the four coils is toast and of course theyre only sold as a package deal for all 4 for my bike. Parts are over 200, then over 150 for them diagnosing it and installing the new parts. Yay...

Well ouch! Hopefully the ride home from the dealership will erase the trauma of the repair bill. (cough-ass raping)

Yeah, Im dying for the ride home. Its been too long already and I wont have it back til this weekend or early next week. Nothing like getting to pay a ton of money to not get to ride for a while [/sarcasm]

to be honest, there are more expensive things that it could have been... but I don't get why they can't get you just 1 coil from another "junk" bike or something...

Cause it's the dealership, their process of repair, usually is replace all components in a system that could be causing said problem, vs only replacing the one known problem once found.

Yea it definitely could have been a lot worse

Pretty much. He started on with the stuff about not knowing if used electrical parts like that would last or if theyd just crap out after a week too.