So very sad..

Archren · 04-11-2011, 12:52 PM

I couldn't find another thread about this, don't know if the shooting in Brazil was mentioned here.

http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/2011/...painful-story/

As a novice photographer, this in particular speaks a lot to me because those of us who take it seriously are, in a way, trying to convey something with our photos. I think these guys really accomplished that, because the tragedy of the event aside, the amount of emotion they captured put me in tears.

Trip · 04-11-2011, 12:59 PM

I think these people are vultures. If this happened to my children, I would not want you or any other fucking journalist at my child's funeral.

Archren · 04-11-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

I think these people are vultures. If this happened to my children, I would not want you or any other fucking journalist at my child's funeral.

In a sense you're right. However, I think that these guys attempted to respect the families by not being in their faces like some of the other journalists there. I personally wouldn't want to shoot funerals like that, and I don't know if this was a public burial or what (there seem to be a LOT of people there).

I went to a lecture not too long ago by Maggie Steeber, a photojournalist who did a great deal of work in Haiti over the last couple of decades, and she said she initially felt very guilty about taking photos of the victims of the (recent) quake, until one of the family members said that they wanted her to take the photos, that she was immortalizing them, wheras otherwise they would simply be forgotten.

As quickly as information comes and goes in this day and age... some people want complete privacy, others don't want their deceased to be some simple statistic. I can't speak for these families in particular, but I think the way these photos were taken, and the deference by which the two photographers in the link treated the families is very different from papparazzi just trying to "get in on the action."

azoomm · 04-11-2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

I think these people are vultures. If this happened to my children, I would not want you or any other fucking journalist at my child's funeral.

I agree.

He writes of his colleagues yelling out that someone was "blocking the shot." How he felt bad, but still kept clicking.

Particle Man · 04-11-2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip

I think these people are vultures. If this happened to my children, I would not want you or any other fucking journalist at my child's funeral.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archren

In a sense you're right. However, I think that these guys attempted to respect the families by not being in their faces like some of the other journalists there. I personally wouldn't want to shoot funerals like that, and I don't know if this was a public burial or what (there seem to be a LOT of people there).

I went to a lecture not too long ago by Maggie Steeber, a photojournalist who did a great deal of work in Haiti over the last couple of decades, and she said she initially felt very guilty about taking photos of the victims of the (recent) quake, until one of the family members said that they wanted her to take the photos, that she was immortalizing them, wheras otherwise they would simply be forgotten.

As quickly as information comes and goes in this day and age... some people want complete privacy, others don't want their deceased to be some simple statistic. I can't speak for these families in particular, but I think the way these photos were taken, and the deference by which the two photographers in the link treated the families is very different from papparazzi just trying to "get in on the action."

The fact that they were there was enough to disrespect the funeral, the family, and the children in my opinion. I have to agree with Trip on this one.

Archren · 04-11-2011, 03:33 PM

From what I am seeing in other articles, these funerals were not private events..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110408/...chool_shooting

"More than a thousand people gathered for the first funerals, held at a cemetery atop a hill overlooking the working-class neighborhood where the school shooting took place a day earlier."

"Officials posted the schedule of funerals on the school gate, and teachers left messages on a blackboard in the school yard imploring for better security in Brazil's schools."

Maybe it's the difference in culture, that a funeral became as much of a community event of mourning as it was a private family event. Certainly there were enough people there to remove the photographers if they were unwanted by the family.

For that matter, if something as significant happens in our country - OKC bombing, Columbine... should photographers be banned from those as well? Should we prosecute those people who shot photos or video of the WTC towers coming down with their phones or camcorders? Should their memorials be torn down, and victims' names omitted out of respect for the families? What about photos at military funerals? How many of you have been touched by photos of a loved one being handed the flag from their deceased's coffin? Should there be no such photography, even if the family is ok with it? Should we not have images of tragedies to help us remember the consequences and the aftermath of violence? Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, India, Phillipines, just to name a few? Is all photojournalism simply being a vulture, or is there any room for the attempt to convey the importance and the emotional impact of such events?

I think photographing these things - within reason, and with consent - is important. If it was clear that the photographers were not welcome at these ceremonies, I'd be more inclined to agree with your opinions. In this case, however, while there were certainly journalists there who didn't give two shits about the families' pain and who should have been kicked in the fucking nuts, the ones mentioned in the original article did care, and wished to simply convey their emotion, their pain, while being respectful, because the rest of the world should know, and ought to care about what happened. It shouldn't be limited to letters and numbers on a page or on a screen - because I think we all know how quickly that is forgotten and lost in the barrage of information we read on a daily basis.

Homeslice · 04-11-2011, 04:30 PM

Pictures of the WTC coming down, or of disaster workers/victims, are perfectly fine, since they occured in the public and therefore there's no expectation of privacy. A funeral, on the other hand........Sure, it might be open to the public, but common sense needs to prevail. Photographers should ask for the family's permission before releasing photos of things like that.

Archren · 04-11-2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeslice

Pictures of the WTC coming down, or of disaster workers/victims, are perfectly fine, since they occured in the public and therefore there's no expectation of privacy. A funeral, on the other hand........Sure, it might be open to the public, but common sense needs to prevail. Photographers should ask for permission before releasing photos of things like that.

I can't honestly comment on if these particular photographers received consent from the families. This entire thing certainly dances on the line of ethics. I know they claim they did speak to members of the families, and I would hope that they received consent in order to make these images public, but I would be lying if I said I was certain they did.

Under the NPPA (National Press Photographers Association), under their codes of ethics it states: "Treat all subjects with respect and dignity. Give special consideration to vulnerable subjects and compassion to victims of crime or tragedy. Intrude on private moments of grief only when the public has an overriding and justifiable need to see." I don't know if these Reuters photographers fall under the NPPA, since it appears to be an American organization, not an international one. But the ethics considerations are the same... and my personal opinion is that the world does need to see this - to remind us all of the reality. It isn't as though these journalists are taking photos through a window and being sneaky about it - they were in the thick of it, they spoke with the families, they were from the same community, and were grieving for the community's losses as well.

I think that last part again plays a lot into the cultural difference between the US and South America. Rio may be a big city, but neighborhoods act a lot like small rural communities in the states, at least from my observations from when I would visit my family in Brazil (Brasilia, Sao Paolo, and Natal - I haven't been to Rio in over a decade, however). My grandparents knew a lot of people all over the neighborhood, largely because everyone interacted in the local shops and walking to and from places. Same thing in Sao Paolo (albeit on a smaller scale... Sao Paolo can be a little scary at times.. and my fuzzy memory of living in Rio as a small child gives me a similar impression).

So ethics debate aside... my heart goes out to those families mourning their loss. RIP...

Papa_Complex · 04-12-2011, 09:36 AM

It's a narrow line to tread and there are certainly those, who think that they have to act like paparazzi, who cause no end of pain to the people they're using for profit.

Hell, I used to put my camera away, at the track, whenever there was a crash. Until racers started getting pissed at me for it, that is. There was a lot of discussion about shooting the G20, on a local photography forum, where I clearly said that I wouldn't be anywhere near it. I had a feeling how it was going to go and wanted no part of it.

When performed with respect, you're capturing history. When done the way that so many seem to, these days, it's just being an asshole and trying to get that big paycheck from a magazine, while walking over bodies. Without photojournalists, the abuses in places like Vietnam would likely never have come to light. Without paparazzi, Princess Diana likely wouldn't be dead.

There's good and bad in everything.

wildchild · 04-12-2011, 01:19 PM

I guess it would be alright to photograph it as long as any money made from sales of those photos went to the family of the deceased.
having a "public" funeral oes not imply permission to photograph and use their tragedy for a photographer's personal gain.
I would agree with Trip, photographers at funerals equal vultures.

04-11-2011, 12:52 PM	#1
Archren Sham WOW Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ATX Moto: 2007 Ducati 1098 Posts: 2,741	So very sad.. I couldn't find another thread about this, don't know if the shooting in Brazil was mentioned here. http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/2011/...painful-story/ As a novice photographer, this in particular speaks a lot to me because those of us who take it seriously are, in a way, trying to convey something with our photos. I think these guys really accomplished that, because the tragedy of the event aside, the amount of emotion they captured put me in tears. __________________ Photography "The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time. It was impossible." - Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

04-11-2011, 03:33 PM	#6
Archren Sham WOW Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ATX Moto: 2007 Ducati 1098 Posts: 2,741	From what I am seeing in other articles, these funerals were not private events.. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110408/...chool_shooting "More than a thousand people gathered for the first funerals, held at a cemetery atop a hill overlooking the working-class neighborhood where the school shooting took place a day earlier." "Officials posted the schedule of funerals on the school gate, and teachers left messages on a blackboard in the school yard imploring for better security in Brazil's schools." Maybe it's the difference in culture, that a funeral became as much of a community event of mourning as it was a private family event. Certainly there were enough people there to remove the photographers if they were unwanted by the family. For that matter, if something as significant happens in our country - OKC bombing, Columbine... should photographers be banned from those as well? Should we prosecute those people who shot photos or video of the WTC towers coming down with their phones or camcorders? Should their memorials be torn down, and victims' names omitted out of respect for the families? What about photos at military funerals? How many of you have been touched by photos of a loved one being handed the flag from their deceased's coffin? Should there be no such photography, even if the family is ok with it? Should we not have images of tragedies to help us remember the consequences and the aftermath of violence? Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, India, Phillipines, just to name a few? Is all photojournalism simply being a vulture, or is there any room for the attempt to convey the importance and the emotional impact of such events? I think photographing these things - within reason, and with consent - is important. If it was clear that the photographers were not welcome at these ceremonies, I'd be more inclined to agree with your opinions. In this case, however, while there were certainly journalists there who didn't give two shits about the families' pain and who should have been kicked in the fucking nuts, the ones mentioned in the original article did care, and wished to simply convey their emotion, their pain, while being respectful, because the rest of the world should know, and ought to care about what happened. It shouldn't be limited to letters and numbers on a page or on a screen - because I think we all know how quickly that is forgotten and lost in the barrage of information we read on a daily basis. __________________ Photography "The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time. It was impossible." - Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

04-12-2011, 09:36 AM	#9
Papa_Complex Nomadic Tribesman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Brampton, Canada Moto: '09 ER-6n Posts: 11,150	It's a narrow line to tread and there are certainly those, who think that they have to act like paparazzi, who cause no end of pain to the people they're using for profit. Hell, I used to put my camera away, at the track, whenever there was a crash. Until racers started getting pissed at me for it, that is. There was a lot of discussion about shooting the G20, on a local photography forum, where I clearly said that I wouldn't be anywhere near it. I had a feeling how it was going to go and wanted no part of it. When performed with respect, you're capturing history. When done the way that so many seem to, these days, it's just being an asshole and trying to get that big paycheck from a magazine, while walking over bodies. Without photojournalists, the abuses in places like Vietnam would likely never have come to light. Without paparazzi, Princess Diana likely wouldn't be dead. There's good and bad in everything. __________________ "Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge, "Dorkness Rising" http://www.morallyambiguous.net/

04-11-2011, 12:59 PM	#2
Trip Hold mah beer! Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: 80 Miles South of Moto Heaven Moto: 08 R1200GS Posts: 23,268	I think these people are vultures. If this happened to my children, I would not want you or any other fucking journalist at my child's funeral.

04-11-2011, 04:30 PM	#7
Homeslice Elitist Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area Moto: Gix 750 Posts: 11,351	Pictures of the WTC coming down, or of disaster workers/victims, are perfectly fine, since they occured in the public and therefore there's no expectation of privacy. A funeral, on the other hand........Sure, it might be open to the public, but common sense needs to prevail. Photographers should ask for the family's permission before releasing photos of things like that.

04-12-2011, 01:19 PM	#10
wildchild cruiser Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: on the run Moto: '09 HD superglide, 16 Yamaha FZ 09 Posts: 2,749	I guess it would be alright to photograph it as long as any money made from sales of those photos went to the family of the deceased. having a "public" funeral oes not imply permission to photograph and use their tragedy for a photographer's personal gain. I would agree with Trip, photographers at funerals equal vultures.