$447 bil

[Corey]

Damn, I have the exact opposite view of government schools. I'm not one to pat myself on the back, but I came out a better person from going to base schools than if I would have gone to public schools. With the exception of 10th - 12th grade, all of my schooling took place on base. I think I came out of school better educated and better prepared for things than many people in the public school systems. The class sizes were smaller, the teachers seemed more apt to give a shit about the individual students, and there seemed to be far less external bullshit brought into the the learning environment.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

Also for your numbers. I don't doubt them one bit. But you are also forgetting how much the states and local governments spend on education. I doubt the states send much to the DOD.

...

So education gets $650billion total with help from local, state, and federal governments. The DOD only gets their money from the federal government.

You're right, I was only looking at federal funds. But regardless of whether the money comes from the state or the federal government, it ultimately comes from us.

That said, total expenditures on education, including state and local money, work out to about $10,000 per student in this country in 2007.* Accounting for inflation and possible *cough* budget increases, let's call it $15,000 per student. Hell, call it $20,000, per student, per year in 2011.

The current DoD budget is $680 billion, again not including war budgets. There are currently about 2,940,000 servicemembers, including reservists. So even with reservists, who actually get paid a fraction of active duty salaries, the DoD is spending $231,000 per servicemember, per year in 2011.

Doesn't seem to matter how much the states and local governments are contributing, a student costs us 8% of what a servicemember does. Again, not even counting the war budgets, which add (very conservatively) another $100 billion per year.

Obviously, these are simplified estimates. Besides, we can batter numbers around all day, but what's the point? At the end of the day, what good does it do to defend a country that can't offer any legitimate competition in the world market? The fact is that you are correct, and most parents would choose to spend their money on something other than their children's education. That just underscores my point in other threads that the problem with education isn't teachers, it's parents. But as a country, can we afford to stand by and allow the average American to raise a litter of illiterates? I, for one, don't want to be paying a soldier $100K a year or more if he can't even read the goddamn package instructions on an MRE (they are half pictures, by the way).


*http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

[Homeslice]

Strange how this thread evolved.

Obama's proposal isn't something I'm all that gungho about, but where are the counter-proposals from the GOP? How do they propose to improve the economy? So far I haven't heard shit from them, other than the same old tired "decrease regulations" which would be a fucking disaster. Yeah, let's allow Big Oil and Big Banking to do whatever they want, screwing us and screwing the environment like they already did. Yeah, great idea.

And I am sorry to disappoint the armchair rich people in here, who think it is macho to defend rich people or something, but higher taxes on the rich is a good idea IMO. The whole "it is unfair to raise taxes on anyone" idea is total BS, because the rich WERE paying much higher taxes years ago, until the the cuts in the 80's. And there was never any guarantee that those cuts would be permanent. So they can't act as though it would be some kind of treasonous, unprecendented action.

And what is with this whole tax breaks for Big Oil that has been going on forever? What kind of fuckign shit is that? Since when have those fat cats ever needed more money? Fuck Texas.

[Smittie61984]

Well schools aren't exactly in need of B-2 bombers or high end satellites that can probably read our thoughts 5 minutes before we think them. It is hard to compare school's needs and the military needs.

I feel in reality, we could teach children everything they need to know to get to a point they are ready for college with a white board and a sharpy. L'hopital wrote the 1st calculus book and he did that in the late 1600s. He didn't have fancy power points, Macbooks, touch screen projectors, graphing calculators (which I never used once), or even a basic calculator. English shouldn't require more than a pen and paper. Social Studies shouldn't require anything more than a $50 textbook and maybe a globe.

The military on the other hand needs a lot of technology and a lot of money. The Navy SEALS shouldn't roll into Bin Laden's crib with an old Huey and a M1 Garand. They need top secret high dollar helicopters with high dollar satellites and high dollar night vision (and training) to pull it off. I wouldn't want the people who are facing danger to have anything less.

I also want to point out that I don't isolate the teachers as the only problem. No doubt parents have a big role. But I also know that from personal experience how bad teachers can be and it is easier to fix teachers.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before but a great movie to watch is called Waiting for Superman. It's a documentary about the government school systems. Pretty damn eye opening also for the parents who say "my school district is fine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg

[Homeslice]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

I feel in reality, we could teach children everything they need to know to get to a point they are ready for college with a white board and a sharpy. L'hopital wrote the 1st calculus book and he did that in the late 1600s. He didn't have fancy power points, Macbooks, touch screen projectors, graphing calculators (which I never used once), or even a basic calculator. English shouldn't require more than a pen and paper. Social Studies shouldn't require anything more than a $50 textbook and maybe a globe.

What about computers? Chemistry labs? Gymnasiums? Athletic fields?

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

The military on the other hand needs a lot of technology and a lot of money. The Navy SEALS shouldn't roll into Bin Laden's crib with an old Huey and a M1 Garand. They need top secret high dollar helicopters with high dollar satellites and high dollar night vision (and training) to pull it off. I wouldn't want the people who are facing danger to have anything less.

Even though we are 10-20 years ahead of anyone else in military tech, the military industrial complex keeps exaggerating the threat from Russia/China/Iran etc. so they can convince Congress to buy more of their shit. And then there's black budgets we don't even know about.

Stealth helicopters are nice and all, but we wouldn't have needed them if we hadn't basically created Al Qeada in the first place.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

Not all Captains have "much more responsibility"

Some are just engineers, or nurses, or pilots. While they might have a tough job, they don't actually manage/lead anyone until they become commander of a squadron or whatever.

Aside from your engineer friends (which I agree are pretty useless as leaders/managers of anything other than construction/research type projects), officers, not just Captains are leading/managing people from the day after they pin on their shiny little butter bars. Young LT's dont just spend several years learning their job, although if they are smart, they latch on to experienced NCOs/SNCOs and learn as fast and as much as they can...but wait, I digress... Ah yes, most young LT's step immediately into a job leading (or managing if you prefer) anywhere from a dozen to more than a hundred. This experience leading puts them in position to actually be squadron commanders by the time they are "just Captains".

Pilots, hmm... I'm not a big fan of them in general (because a lot can be real dick-heads, but I guess that can be said about us all at times) but one thing you have to give them credit for is that about 99% of them possess the personality traits that make good leaders. They are mostly type A people that dont hesitate to make decisions when they need making. Granted most pilot training can take up to 2 years, but that training is not just how to fly a plane, hell you could teach anybody to be a rudder-monkey in less than 6 months. A majority of that training is further teaching them how to be good/effective/responsible leaders, from how to manage (that word again) a crew (of a dozen people or more) to planning a mission that involves hundreds of people that they have the lead on. B ut what about those single-seat fighter pricks you ask? Every fighter that I can think of flys in multi-ship formations, they dont just say "Hey, lets meet up somewhere up there and fly around together"... Formations have leaders and are made up of elements that each have leaders, even in training...

Not sure how much you actually know about Combat Controllers, PJs or other tough fuckers in the Air Force (there are actually quite a few, STS/Combat Weather-no joke/TAC-Ps)... Combat Controllers arent necessarily leaders (I'm not saying that they aren't good at what they do or arent able to make tough decisions) but usually a CCT or TAC-P is embedded with other units and calls in strikes on what he is told to call in strikes on. PJs usually operate in 5-6 man teams with one CRO (Combat Rescue Officer) usually a LT or young Captain (definate leadership there, wont argue), a Team Lead (usually a SNCO) and 3 or 4 other young GAs that are there to support and do what they are supposed to. Are they any less bad-ass? Not at all, I actually have a little under 2 dozen of them here under my command (fucking scary thought that the AF has resorted to me) and they are straight up the next-best-thing-to-supermen...

I'm not even going to get into the whole pay discussion other than to say this:
- I didn't join to make a bunch of money and get rich, none of us did. I have my own reasons just like everyone that has ever signed their name on the line, raised their hand and took that oath.
- I make decent money, I wont lie. Its allows me (when I'm home) and the wife to be comfortable and enjoy some of the things we like.
- Do I make enough? I feel I am paid decent for what I've done. I do think there are some folks out there doing some shit that should be paid a whole lot more.


And for anyone that thinks the military gets paid too much, well I cant speak for everyone else, but fuck you very much and I would personally like to thank you all for paying for CHIs new house (tho its a rental), her new furniture (new to us, old shit from a thrift store), oh and I guess for making my truck payment...

I'm done rambling now, back to my nice vacation in the Med... Mythos and pitas...

[101lifts2]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

....Stealth helicopters are nice and all, but we wouldn't have needed them if we hadn't basically created Al Qeada in the first place.

And Saddam and Osama Bin Laden and the Tailban...and etc. etc. etc. Let's create the problem...so we can fix it! It is all about money.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by 101lifts2

And Saddam and Osama Bin Laden and the Tailban...and etc. etc. etc. Let's create the problem...so we can fix it! It is all about money.

Actually it's all about expediency. It all looked good, at the time, but no one bothered to take the long view. Gotta win that next election. Screw posterity.

[Particle Man]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Gotta win that next election. Screw posterity.

this.

Too busy KEEPING the job rather than DOING the job...

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

What about computers? Chemistry labs? Gymnasiums? Athletic fields?
...
Stealth helicopters are nice and all, but we wouldn't have needed them if we hadn't basically created Al Qeada in the first place.

Computers and Chemistry labs. Fair enough. I'm curious how much we blow on nice athletic fields and gymnasiums. Want to play sports? Go join some private team somewhere else. Watching my local news this morning I noticed some wannabe news man featuring some high school. The gym these high schoolers were using is nicer than the gym I pay membership for. Not necesarry one bit.

Stealth Helicopters and nice stuff like that is necesarry for the military. We need to be top dogs even nif right now there isn't a threat from a major country.