Bin laden dead

[tommymac]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

I dunno... waterboarding just doesn't seem like much in the way of torture to me...

I guess theyre beyond use of car batteries or fingernail removal now.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

I dunno... waterboarding just doesn't seem like much in the way of torture to me...

Try it sometime. I'm sure we could arrange for a group of strangers to kidnap you off the street, in a plain white van, and subject you to 'not much in the way of torture' for a few days.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

Well, in that case maybe we shouldn't have cited it as one of our charges against Japanese generals

Do as I say...

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Try it sometime. I'm sure we could arrange for a group of strangers to kidnap you off the street, in a plain white van, and subject you to 'not much in the way of torture' for a few days.

Well, I'm sure it isn't pleasant, but that's sorta the point... I mean if people demonstrate it while the protesting on college campuses and we subject our own operatives to it as a part of their training, is it really bad enough to qualify as torture?

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Well, I'm sure it isn't pleasant, but that's sorta the point... I mean if people demonstrate it while the protesting on college campuses and we subject our own operatives to it as a part of their training, is it really bad enough to qualify as torture?

That was my point about abducting you in a white van, first. Having people you trust do it isn't the same thing as having some shadowy enemy do it. It is torture, pure and simple.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

That was my point about abducting you in a white van, first. Having people you trust do it isn't the same thing as having some shadowy enemy do it. It is torture, pure and simple.

I suppose that's why they subject operatives to beatings, disfigurement, electrocution, etc as part of their training... and that's why you see all those kids doing that shit when they are protesting... wait...

Sure, it's probably pretty fucking horrible to experience... but to me, it's not even close to the level:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture[1]

Severe pain or suffering... means something to everyone, but not necessarily the same thing to everyone... I wouldn't consider waterboard to be severe.

[askmrjesus]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Well, I'm sure it isn't pleasant, but that's sorta the point... I mean if people demonstrate it while the protesting on college campuses and we subject our own operatives to it as a part of their training, is it really bad enough to qualify as torture?

Look at it this way, waterboarding has been employed by the Gestapo, the Kempeitai (basically the Gestapo of the Japanese army during WWII), the Spanish Inquisition (whom nobody ever expects) and the Khmer Rouge.

What do all those organizations have in common?

I'll give you a hint; it's not their delicious pies and cakes.

JC

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

I suppose that's why they subject operatives to beatings, disfigurement, electrocution, etc as part of their training... and that's why you see all those kids doing that shit when they are protesting... wait...

Sure, it's probably pretty fucking horrible to experience... but to me, it's not even close to the level:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture[1]

Severe pain or suffering... means something to everyone, but not necessarily the same thing to everyone... I wouldn't consider waterboard to be severe.

They feel the need to inure people to torture so they subject them to a form that leaves no lasting physical injury, when performed under carefully controlled conditions. Ironically it also has little chance of causing lasting PSYCHOLOGICAL injury, because it's being performed by 'friendlies.'

Again, I suggest that you partake of it while in the 'care' of people, whom you don't know.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by askmrjesus

Look at it this way, waterboarding has been employed by the Gestapo, the Kempeitai (basically the Gestapo of the Japanese army during WWII), the Spanish Inquisition (whom nobody ever expects) and the Khmer Rouge.

What do all those organizations have in common?

I'll give you a hint; it's not their delicious pies and cakes.

JC

You mean they don't have delicious pies and cakes?

[askmrjesus]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Severe pain or suffering... means something to everyone, but not necessarily the same thing to everyone... I wouldn't consider waterboard to be severe.

So, you'd be cool with me waterbording your mom, right?

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

You mean they don't have delicious pies and cakes?

Well, the Gestapo probably had a couple of guys that made a mean Strudel, but the others, not so much.

JC

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

They feel the need to inure people to torture so they subject them to a form that leaves no lasting physical injury, when performed under carefully controlled conditions. Ironically it also has little chance of causing lasting PSYCHOLOGICAL injury, because it's being performed by 'friendlies.'

Again, I suggest that you partake of it while in the 'care' of people, whom you don't know.

And the form that's used for interrogation does leave lasting physical injury?

For the psychological standpoint, that's pretty subjective... 1) the guys they waterboarded were trained to resist such things, mitigating the psychological impacts long term 2) they were pretty fucked in the head to begin with... like comparing walking a normal, well adjusted person onto a gruesome battlefield... they'd obviously have long term psychological damage, but put Charles Manson out there and watch him finger paint with entrails. Poor comparison to begin with.

Originally Posted by askmrjesus

So, you'd be cool with me waterbording your mom, right?



Well, the Gestapo probably had a couple of guys that made a mean Strudel, but the others, not so much.

JC

No, I wouldn't be cool with you waterboarding my mom. I also wouldn't be cool with you shooting my mom in the face, but if you caught one of these guys during the raid on Bin Laden's compound... no biggie.

Again, you guys are making terrible comparisons... It's not like they waterboarded hundreds of random people... They did it to guys who were trained specifically to resist that sort of thing, are fucked in the head to begin with, etc...