shits gonna hit the fan now

[wildchild]

Originally Posted by tommymac

Its not always that easy, sure most teachers would like a gig like that but they have to be able to get that job first.

On LI teachers have it prety good for the most part, they make tenure, they get paid rather well and most work in prety good school districts. On the flip side NYC teachers get paid a lot less, have to make duye with less and a lot work in prety crummy school districts. SO of course most of them want out and would kill for a gig out here in the burbs.

ok but (it may be different there) here what we do to get teachers in the inner city is we give them a free education, in return for 2 years of teaching in the city. then they are free to go where ever. the hope is and it works now and then, that they will like the job or truly want to help so they will stay for a while.
we have some good teachers in the city but they tend to get run out by unruly students and worse parents.
yes many of our teachers end up in the suburb schools and what they have done to equalize the education for everyone is allow school choice so inner city kids can be bussed out to suburbs if their parents choose.

[tommymac]

Originally Posted by Trip

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

I know theyre pushing to do away with it here, or at least in nyc. Withthe current budget mess a lot of teachers will get the ax and its based on tenure/senority. Been hearing a lot of radio commercials looking ot make the layoffs merit based vs tenure.

Kinda how it should be but the unions wil never go for it. The funny/sad thing about it is I am actualy part of the teachers union for some reason. I guess the state employees at the hospital got lumped in with them.

[tommymac]

Originally Posted by wildchild

ok but (it may be different there) here what we do to get teachers in the inner city is we give them a free education, in return for 2 years of teaching in the city. then they are free to go where ever. the hope is and it works now and then, that they will like the job or truly want to help so they will stay for a while.
we have some good teachers in the city but they tend to get run out by unruly students and worse parents.
yes many of our teachers end up in the suburb schools and what they have done to equalize the education for everyone is allow school choice so inner city kids can be bussed out to suburbs if their parents choose.

I dont know about teachers but tha tpractice is done in the medical field. we pay your tuition and you give us 2-5 yrs in an underserved area.

I bet its the same here, teachers just get burnt out after a while and look to go elsewhere.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Trip

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

Tenure is a pretty sticky issue, for sure. Once you got it, even murder might not get you fired. How many actually get tenure though? Tenure isn't something a junior or high school teacher gets here.

It's a vicious circle. Teachers get ridden for the decline of the educational system, which demotivates them to make any improvements. They're rated on ridiculous testing standards, that are supposed to rate how well they teach the students, so they only teach the students how to write the tests.

[OneSickPsycho]

I don't pretend to know much about teachers wages, benefits, and whatnot across the US, but I do know this... Of ALL of the teachers I know... and I know several... If you factor in the fact that they work 3/4 of a year instead of a full year, they make just as much money - or more - than the middle class mean. Looking at the wages, people somehow always seem to forget that they do not work a full year... $30k/yr for 9 mos out of the year = $40k compared to the rest of us. That's a siginificant difference.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

I don't pretend to know much about teachers wages, benefits, and whatnot across the US, but I do know this... Of ALL of the teachers I know... and I know several... If you factor in the fact that they work 3/4 of a year instead of a full year, they make just as much money - or more - than the middle class mean. Looking at the wages, people somehow always seem to forget that they do not work a full year... $30k/yr for 9 mos out of the year = $40k compared to the rest of us. That's a siginificant difference.

Leave that factor out because a teacher who doesn't do some work during that time off, including taking courses to improve personal standing, will be working double-time during the year.

If you don't make that money, then you don't make that money. It's not like you miraculously don't have to pay your mortgage/rent or buy food, for three months of the year.

[Particle Man]

Originally Posted by Trip

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

Problem is, it's swinging in the opposite direction now: they're basing everything on test scores. So tenure is going away and everything depends on whether or not kids score high on standardized tests (at least here).

That means one of two things are going to happen:

1) teachers are only going to teach to tests and the kids won't learn jack shit except rote memorization

2) numbers will get fudged, especially on English exams or more subjective tests

You can't take a numbers based outcome approach to education, especially when you factor in each students' aptitude and ability. It just won't work.

This is why I left the teaching profession to begin with: I don't agree with basing everything on standardized testing.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Tenure is a pretty sticky issue, for sure. Once you got it, even murder might not get you fired. How many actually get tenure though? Tenure isn't something a junior or high school teacher gets here.

Tenure is a lot more common here. Elementary school teachers get it. My mother in law teaches 5th grade and has it.

[nhgunnut]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Sure, they could, and then the 90% of the country, who can't afford private school, would be fucked. They serve a necessary purpose. They get paid shit. Grinding them down, even further than they already are, is a fucking stupid move when they frequently have more input into a child's life than his parents do.

The issue is not the Teachers it is however the Unions and their Entitlements. BTW "Collective Bargaining" is an entitlement not a right.
The changes in Wisconsin place the Public Employees in precisely the same bargaining position as our Federal Employees. Unions there have lost the ability to demand that you join them, or collect dues from non members. They also now have to deal with each Community Individually and live within the means of those Communities.
For the Record I admire Teachers, I tech ins a corrections environment, I Don't believe society Values Teachers enough .
Unions here in the states however have grown from once being the protector of workers into power hungry organizations who routinely seek power and money at the expense of those they are supposed to represent. AFLCIO Chairmen makes declares a Salary (before bonuses and merit review) of $480k yearly.
If the US is to ever to get to a stable economy it needs to control the unions.
Oh and by the way if a teacher has more input in your child's life than you do , You are a Piss Poor Parent! and I or someone like me will in all likelihood will be getting to teach your kids at some point.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Particle Man

Problem is, it's swinging in the opposite direction now: they're basing everything on test scores. So tenure is going away and everything depends on whether or not kids score high on standardized tests (at least here).

That means one of two things are going to happen:

1) teachers are only going to teach to tests and the kids won't learn jack shit except rote memorization

2) numbers will get fudged, especially on English exams or more subjective tests

You can't take a numbers based outcome approach to education, especially when you factor in each students' aptitude and ability. It just won't work.

This is why I left the teaching profession to begin with: I don't agree with basing everything on standardized testing.

The standardized test method is horseshit too.