Student quits high school choir over Islamic song

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

If they were the same god, the different styles of worship would describe denominations. They are different religions, at least according to those who practice them.

At this point it's a semantic argument, I think. I understand the three share holy books, some dogmas, and a lot of history (both verified and dogmatic). But they are different gods in my book, by my definition of what makes a thing "different" from another thing. To a Christian, worship of the Muslim god is idolatry, and if it goes without a belief in Christ as the savior (a god) it's a path to hell. To a Muslim, belief in Christ as a god is idolatry, and denial of Mohammed as the prophet is some sort of sin. A Jew would also consider worship of Christ as idolatry.*

* These are, of course, the "by-the-book" dogmatic views, as I understand them. I get that some Christians don't believe in hell, some Jews eat shellfish, and some Muslims have probably never even heard of Gabriel.

Sorry, but if a Christian considers worship of the "Muslim God" to be idolatry, then said Christian needs to look that word up. In fact Islam has even less symbology attached than do the majority of Christian denominations.

Most religions, that are based in the Old Testament stories, believe that everyone who doesn't follow their personal flavour is going straight to hell. At least one even believes that not all of THEM are going to heaven, because they have a set number who will get in. As far as I'm concerned any of their new converts are fools, because all the tickets for the cruise ship have already been sold.

Islam admits that Jews and Christians follow the same God, but says that they got it wrong. They're all based on the same foundation books. It's not semantics, it's bloody fact, that they all follow the same God. Those who fail to admit this are simply trying to set themselves further apart from what is different because of zenophobia, or simple bigotry. The simple truth is that they can't agree on what secret handshake gets you into the lodge house, but they all have the same address to it.

[derf]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I'm supposed to answer not only whether they are three different deities, but whether those three could fornicate?

Although, if they are the same god, the implications are mind-boggling...

the father, the father, the father and the holy shit ghost?

[Lamnidae]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I'm supposed to answer not only whether they are three different deities, but whether those three could fornicate?

Although, if they are the same god, the implications are mind-boggling...

wow... mindfuck - right there...

[Amber Lamps]

Man, this is the real problem.... No one really studies religion anymore. Yahweh, Allah and God are the same person. There is no question. Both are off-shoots of the Israelite mono-theistic religion. Which in turn has been theorized as a modification of an older middle eastern religion that can be traced back to Mesopotamia or the "cradle of civilization". Moreover, Jesus never started a "religion", he preached a slightly different, "reformed" version of Judaism but he still considered himself a Jew. His followers actually started "Christianity" and Rome took the ball and ran away with it. Some of you would argue that Catholics and Lutherans have a different God. Oh and btw basically all religions are "rip offs" of each other. There are elements of the older "pagan" religions in Judaism and a great deal of Catholic rituals were "borrowed" from "pagan" religions to better assimilate them. Even the original Roman religion was little more than a direct "rip off" of older Greek beliefs.

[fatbuckRTO]

You guys are talking as if Yahweh, Allah, or whatever else actually exists and defining this one god in historical context. In my mind he or they don't exist, so I define them by how their believers perceive them. Some of those believers perceive that certain events happened, other believers say different events happened. Unless there is one deity simultaneously doing certain things but not doing them, the believers are defining and worshipping different gods.

I understand that the myths differ only slightly, and that from a secular historian's point of view all these people are worshipping one character with a slightly different history and prophesized future. What I'm saying is that there are some people who believe Yahweh came to earth as a man, others who believe he has not done that but will, and others who believe something totally different. To those people who believe, as they exist today they are different gods (despite the fact that they have at times been referred to by the same names). Unless a deity actually exists, how do you define a deity except in the terms of its believers?

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

You guys are talking as if Yahweh, Allah, or whatever else actually exists and defining this one god in historical context. In my mind he or they don't exist, so I define them by how their believers perceive them. Some of those believers perceive that certain events happened, other believers say different events happened. Unless there is one deity simultaneously doing certain things but not doing them, the believers are defining and worshipping different gods.

I understand that the myths differ only slightly, and that from a secular historian's point of view all these people are worshipping one character with a slightly different history and prophesized future. What I'm saying is that there are some people who believe Yahweh came to earth as a man, others who believe he has not done that but will, and others who believe something totally different. To those people who believe, as they exist today they are different gods (despite the fact that they have at times been referred to by the same names). Unless a deity actually exists, how do you define a deity except in the terms of its believers?

so by your logic, if 3 people look at a tree, their "perception" defines it... It's the same tree no matter what it's called.

Anyway, the Israelites had a God and they all worshiped him. Christianity is an off shoot of Judaism. Islam is the culmination of all Middle Eastern monotheistic religions including Judaism and Christianity.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by Amber Lamps

so by your logic, if 3 people look at a tree, their "perception" defines it...

If it's an imaginary tree in the first place, then yeah.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

If it's an imaginary tree in the first place, then yeah.

Except that they all read about the imaginary tree, in the same book.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Except that they all read about the imaginary tree, in the same book.

Which book?

Was the Old Testament the original manuscript for the big 3 or was there something else that predated it?

[Papa_Complex]

I believe that the oldest written documents, that pertain to this discussion, are the Dead Sea Scrolls. Their existence would point to other, older works and probably oral history, in the region. Who knows? The whole thing might devolve unto Zoroastrianism and the worship of Ahura Mazda, in Iran, but it's clear that the three stated religions hold the Old Testament in high regard.

*EDIT* In case you're wondering, what I'm saying is that it all pretty much starts with the old Torah.