Which scenario breeds the better rider?

[dReWpY]

ahmen!

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Ahhh, interesting point... Not sure if I totally agree but I understand what you're getting at.

But lets take rider skill out of the equation for a second & look at beliefs (for lack of a better word)
Just because one takes a safety course doesn't mean they BELIEVE in being a safe rider.
I see all too many riders (again, regardless of skill level) who have taken & completed the course & get that insurance discount, ride in a blatantly unsafe manner.

Teaching it however, you probably do.
I don't see too many MSF coaches riding crazy on the street.

Anyway, I hope that you would agree that in general, an MSF RiderCoach would be less likely to get into an accident than your average MSF BRC grad.
I just think that the folks that coach the course deserve a little discount as well.

The only reason I would agree with this is because a msf coach would likely be riding for a few years before they start to teach.

Aside from shoulder checks, what did you learn at msf to make you a safer rider that isn't common sense? Even the shoulder checks are..

MSF teaches you very basic skills. And I agree with not giving discounts for it. Do you get a discount for your car for doing a parking lot course in it? If they were to take you on the street and give you real experience, then I would agree.

[karl_1052]

Originally Posted by Apoc

The better riders are born, not bred. Better hand-eye, faster reflexes, ability to read ahead.

I've met people riding their whole lives who werent very good at it. I also know a guy who jumped off dirtbikes and onto a sportbike at 18, and could outride most lifelong riders straight away.

Balls have a lot to do with it too.

On the street speed doesn't mean better. I would prefer safety over fast on the street.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by Tmall

The only reason I would agree with this is because a msf coach would likely be riding for a few years before they start to teach.

Aside from shoulder checks, what did you learn at msf to make you a safer rider that isn't common sense? Even the shoulder checks are..

MSF teaches you very basic skills. And I agree with not giving discounts for it. Do you get a discount for your car for doing a parking lot course in it? If they were to take you on the street and give you real experience, then I would agree.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility.

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering]

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too.



Okay, I'll shut up, now

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility.

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering]

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too.



Okay, I'll shut up, now

There are some mechanical fundamentals taught in MSF that are not "common sense".

I can't tell you how many people are "still afraid of using the front brake". No one told them about the 70/30 rule.

I see people every day trying to turn their motorcycle by "turning the handlebars".

There are many riders I see every week with obvious procedural errors that an MSF course would have corrected.

Many riders I see couldn't "ride the box" if you held a gun to their heads.


I have no doubt that MSF provides better, safer riders.

[OreoGaborio]

I agree, a lot of the skill stuff is not common sense.

[Homeslice]

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

[Apoc]

Originally Posted by karl_1052

On the street speed doesn't mean better. I would prefer safety over fast on the street.

Agreed, but I was talking about ability to handle a bike, throttle control, etc etc

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

Yeah, but I've still seen multi-vehicle accidents on the riding range, so that's gotta count for somethin, right?

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.