A man's right to choose.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

The only assumption that I make about the woman's decision is that she'll either decide to carry it to term, or to abort it. As far as I know those are the only two choices available.

Doesn't a father actually get a say in adoption? I think he has to sign away his parental rights as well for this route to happen.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Trip

Doesn't a father actually get a say in adoption? I think he has to sign away his parental rights as well for this route to happen.

Yup, which means that he not only has responsibilities already, but a certain degree of rights. And before you say it I'll say it again; the woman has more perceived rights because she has more real issues to deal with.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Yup, which means that he not only has responsibilities already, but a certain degree of rights. And before you say it I'll say it again; the woman has more perceived rights because she has more real issues to deal with.

You can say it as many times as you want, as you said before you won't convince me and I won't convince you. The woman holds all the cards before birth, as she should, but the man deserves an opt out. The woman will have plenty of time to make her choice with that knowledge and also be able to opt out with minimum risk thanks to modern medicine.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by Trip

You can say it as many times as you want, as you said before you won't convince me and I won't convince you. The woman holds all the cards before birth, as she should, but the man deserves an opt out. The woman will have plenty of time to make her choice with that knowledge and also be able to opt out with minimum risk thanks to modern medicine.

The whole bit about men 'opting out' in the past is why you can't do it now.

[Trip]

I just see it as making everyone responsible for their decisions, the past wouldn't matter as this would have to be a limited decision based on a very short time window leaving women plenty of time to decide if abortion or adoption is right for them.

Everyone gets a fair and equal decision on it.
Woman finds out she is pregnant, decides she may want to keep it and informs father.
Father does not want a child or is not prepared for child, gets to wave parental rights.
Woman gets to decide if she can support the baby on her own or if abortion/adoption are the necessary paths for her own success.

Hell, a fee paid to the woman for a standardized cost of abortion to wave your parental rights would be perfectly fine by me.

It really just seems like you don't believe abortion is a perfectly fine alternative to me. If you don't that is more than understandable to me, this route would most likely cause a dramatic increase in them.

[Papa_Complex]

Except, as I've said, the responsibilities, penalties, etc. are from from equal. Seriously; we're just going in circles. You want 'equality' and I want 'equity.'

[goof2]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

The only assumption that I make about the woman's decision is that she'll either decide to carry it to term, or to abort it. As far as I know those are the only two choices available.

OK, so no differentiation between adoption and keeping the baby? Then how do the factors you mention even come in to play?

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Except, as I've said, the responsibilities, penalties, etc. are from from equal. Seriously; we're just going in circles. You want 'equality' and I want 'equity.'

Are you talking about fairness or financial equity?

You aren't getting fair, you aren't ever going to get fair in a pregnancy scenario because only one party can even biologically do it. The system is inheritently unfair and there can never be 'equity' in that sense.

[Papa_Complex]

Originally Posted by goof2

OK, so no differentiation between adoption and keeping the baby? Then how do the factors you mention even come in to play?

That's no differentiation between abortion, adoption, or keeping it. Any way you slice it the woman has physical consequences that the man doesn't. The man can walk away and it's like literally nothing has happened. Not so the woman.

Originally Posted by Trip

Are you talking about fairness or financial equity?

You aren't getting fair, you aren't ever going to get fair in a pregnancy scenario because only one party can even biologically do it. The system is inheritently unfair and there can never be 'equity' in that sense.

Call it overall equity, fairness, social balance..... Whatever you like.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

That's no differentiation between abortion, adoption, or keeping it. Any way you slice it the woman has physical consequences that the man doesn't. The man can walk away and it's like literally nothing has happened. Not so the woman.

Call it overall equity, fairness, social balance..... Whatever you like.

How is it balance to put a financial collar around a man for 18 years? The woman has options, the man does not. You are punishing the man for a far longer time frame and his is much more harsh, plus he has 0 options in this punishment to shorten it. Being able to hold someone financially hostage is not anywhere near overall equity. You are also creating a child that will be punished and have severe issues by this as well.

My wife is at 14 weeks right now, if she had an abortion today, her life would of been minimally impacted.