Good first pistol?

[CasterTroy]

Originally Posted by Dave

meh, a lot of times you wont notice due to ambient light and the bullet speed. I found it was easier to learn the difference in recoil when the bolt locks back and program the swap into muscle memory

Well duh when the bolt locks..you're done

No need for muscle memory, or bone recollection or anything fancy...

But at 30-40 rounds a mag, it's helpful....trust me

[Cutty72]

wonder if i'll ever be on a deployment that this skill would be beneficial?

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the relative safety of Kosovo, but in a way I almost feel bad that I'm not getting into or having to live through the "action"

[CasterTroy]

Originally Posted by Cutty72

wonder if i'll ever be on a deployment that this skill would be beneficial?

not sure who WOULD (short of Branch Davidians)

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CasterTroy

Well duh when the bolt locks..you're done

No need for muscle memory, or bone recollection or anything fancy...

But at 30-40 rounds a mag, it's helpful....trust me

im guessing you arent in the service? You'd be amazed how many folks continue to pull the trigger after the bolt locks

[CasterTroy]

Originally Posted by Dave

im guessing you arent in the service?

no...never have been. One of the larger regrets of my past.

Recreational shooter with aspirations of Armageddon Zombie killer one day...but nothing that pays for now

[OTB]

Originally Posted by wildchild

rider i totally understand and agree with everything you are saying, but, what i'm wondering is this.

how accurate can the glock 23 be shot by an average person off the shelf.
what does that mean, the average shooter goes to the range 2-3 times a month, not law enforcement, just a shooter. pick it up, line up the sights, control breathing and bang. bullseye? on the paper? or who the hell knows where it went?
the fact is you will need it for self defense maybe once in your lifetime if at all. the rest of the time you go to the range and punch holes in paper. i prefer to shoot at 25 yards. yes i do some rapid fire exercise but most is controlled fire for grouping. some guns cannot do this no matter how well you shoot, some guns excel at it.

yes of course the gun must fit your hand, it must "come up" as a reflex without repositioning, the trigger must be easily acquired by your finger. that i can get from holding one in a shop. i have and they fit well.
what i was asking is in Gasman's opinion is it one of the more accurate firearms available in that caliber for that price point.
a bonus would be how easily is it taken down for cleaning, assembled, reliability, etc. just opinions from someone who owns one.

I used to consider myself an "above average" shooter, not any more...I'm a rank amateur compared to cops and military :

Grew up in N Minnesota in a military family; had my first BB gun @ age 4. first 22 at age 6, first pistol (High Standard Target) @ 12; shot the school rifle/pistol team in Jr High (yes, our school actually encouraged shooting). Was a back-bencher at the college rifle-pistol team; hunted and shot regularly and after college took part in occasional PPC and bulls eye matches, usually placed in the upper 1/3.

Carried in my business for years; felt comfortable around firearms and could usually hit the wide side of a barn at 20 paces. Read the gunscribes like Ayoob, Chuck Smith, et al and practiced the various scenarios they preached.

I have had the unfortunate experience of having to present a weapon "for real" three times in my lifetime. I have always lived in "decent" areas, stayed away from high-risk (illegal or drug-related) activities and people, yet found myself in the unfortunate position of having to defend myself and/or loved ones from evildoers, multiple times.

The first was a drugged-up home invader looking to score some loot. The other two times were when I owned a restaurant; bad folks looking to rob and plunder. On two of the occasions, the simple sight of my handgun was enough to send the folks fleeing; the last time required me to discharge the weapon.

In all cases, for me the buildup was the same; massive adrenaline dump; focusing of vision and auditory exclusion, fine motor skills vanished (I felt ham-fisted and clumsy) on the one occasion my auto pistol jammed (stovepiped a stock 1911) and it took me what seemed forever to clear it (fortunately two rounds of .45 caliber "flying ashtrays" were enough to stop the fight).

Fact of the matter is that most folks will NEVER have to draw in anger; but if you do; there's a pretty good chance everything you thought you knew will go right out the window unless you train well, train often and train a lot.

It isn't like punching paper targets.

PS. All of my encounters involved 7 FEET or less................

PPS. Any gun is better than no gun.................

[Gas Man]

Originally Posted by Rider

Accuracy lies 99.9% within the shooter and varies from individual gun. What is accurate for you may not be accurate for others for various reasons including hand size, grip strength and breathing technique.

Originally Posted by Dave

what range do you have the ct's set to? They are an issue item overseas and while they work great as a deterrant and as a finger trainer ive always felt that the offset design comprimised it for real world shooting. For most tactical situations id rather have tritium. Wont burn my night eyes and wont give away my position. 'Course itd be best to have both..

Well there is a reason on the larger caliper guns like the glocks that CT has placed the laser above the thumb. So that it is easily blocked with your trigger finger. This allows you to have the laser on but not activily pointing. When you then slide your booger catcher into the hot position the laser is on sight.

Originally Posted by wildchild

that is very true, but the tool you use also has it's own parameters of accuracy. i can easily bang 3 inch groups with a sigma at 25 yards and many people can't. just wondering about the gun itself, i already know my limits. if you have a gun with a bent barrel you can eventually shoot it accurately as a shooter but it doesn't change the fact that the gun itself is still a piece of shit.

i assume the glock would be easier to shoot accurately as it's trigger pull is half or even less then that of my 9mm.

Its not that the trigger pull is light. It is and it isn't. Depends on what you're use to. I felt it was generally normal to me. Till I fire my Ruger LCP (as pictured) then yes, the Glock feels like a hair trigger.

Originally Posted by Rider

Ok put it this way, if it comes down to needing it, it's accurate enough to kill. Most guns that are fired for self defense are fired at distances less than 5 yards away. Even the biggest POS with fixed sights will hit somebody at that range. Ever better with adjustable sights. The bottom line is, buy what is the most comfortable for you to hold and shoot. Brand X may be the most accurate gun in the word but it doesn't mean I'm going to be accurate with it if it doesn't "fit" me.

That is the key here. Accuracy at 25 yards? That is nothing. The average person will NEVER be in danger to shoot at that distance. Not in the urban environments that we live in. It will be within 10 FEET. I shoot and practice to keep myself in check with real world. I'm not out to be active in some shooting competition.

Originally Posted by Cutty72

Glocks have "average" accuracy for the "average" shooter, XD's are the same.
Sigs are generally slightly more accurate for the "average" shooter.

For me, both the glock and the sig are not accurate, the XD is pretty good.
Why?
XD is the only one that fits comfortable in my hand.

Another example.
On the Army pistol qualification, you are given 40 rounds, with 4 different shooting positions at 25 yards. I fired a 28 with the M-9 Beretta.
Same qualification, my XD, I fired a 36.

It really is all about how it fits in your hand.

I tell ya. Sigs are one of the best guns I've ever shot. My bro's dept issue at county was a P226R. WOW.. like butter and I was WAY WAY more accurate than on my Glock 23. Why you may ask? Probably some of the manufacturing or higher quality. But mostly due to the added weight. The weight helps absorb its re-coil.

Biggest problem then. Its heavier. Again... go back to the facts as to why I own and carry. Self defense. As OTB said, it will happen fast, and it will happen very near your person. So I prefer to carry weapons that are easier to carry. I'm not packing a 8" barrel dirty harry. F that.

That again goes to why I am a strong believer in the Crimson Trace lasers. I have one on my Ruger and have one on order for my glock. I love them that much. Not a believer?

Watch the Video they provide on their website. About 35mins for all the chapters. Sure they show some crazy stuff, but they also show why the lasers are so dominating in real world defense.


http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Vid...9/Default.aspx

[Dave]

ok, i have a decent amount of experience with ct's and ive got no clue what it is that you just said.

[marko138]

Originally Posted by Dave

ok, i have a decent amount of experience with ct's and ive got no clue what it is that you just said.

Usually the way I feel about your posts.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by marko138

Usually the way I feel about your posts.